Inside Out Culture
Cath Bishop and Colin Ellis - two people who have been at the heart of workplace culture for over 3 decades host a regular podcast that offers an insider’s view on culture and provides tangible actions that you can take on the outside.
As best-selling authors and consultants who work with cultures around the world, they not only talk about what's happening in the world of work right now, but also provide evidence and commentary to help you change the way you do things too.
From kindness to toxicity, from values to high-performance, Cath and Colin discuss a breadth of topics relevant to the way work gets done. Both are keen to help leaders, managers and colleagues gain competence and confidence to contribute more positively and proactively to their workplace environments.
Please do send in your questions for Cath and Colin to answer. You can email them at insideoutculture@gmail.com or message them on LinkedIn.
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Inside Out Culture
Why don’t leaders understand what culture is?
Have you ever felt like your workplace culture could use a makeover, but you're not quite sure where you should start?
Cath Bishop and Colin Ellis, strip back the layers of organizational culture and leadership in the first episode of their new podcast. They take you on a journey through offices, sporting arenas, and factories, and talk about why culture is the bedrock of performance and wellbeing.
Culture change can often feel like a mythical quest, however, in order to achieve results, it's one that needs to be understood by leaders, then taken. In this episode we explain what culture is and why its definition is critical for team success.
Cath shares her insights on the high stakes of olympic competition and how these lessons translate into leadership that fosters sustainable growth, without sacrificing mental health on the altar of achievement.
Whilst Colin outlines the challenges faced by organisations in the public and private sector who often fall into the trap of "window dressing" their culture and creating a disconnect between the fantasy and reality of the employee experience.
Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organizational culture.
Instagram: @insideoutculture
Email: insideoutculture@gmail.com
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Welcome to the Inside Out Culture podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath Bishop:And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organisation, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.
Colin D Ellis:We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think. Hello everyone, welcome to today's episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast. I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath Bishop, and today we're asking the question why don't leaders understand culture? And given that this is our first podcast, Cath, that feels like the best place to start right.
Cath Bishop:Where else could we start? We need to be thinking yeah, what is this space? Why do we need to talk about this? Why do we need more conversations? Why now and I think we're pretty clear it's important, isn't it, to start helping others talk about culture.
Colin D Ellis:Yeah, I think something that we recognise in the work that we do and we'll give up a bio shortly is that it's never been more important for leaders to think about culture but to take action on culture. We've got lots of case studies that we can share. There's unfortunately, there are stories almost every week in the media and I think certainly from when I started work, which was a very long time ago, attitudes have changed and I think when we ask the question, why this? Why now? It's because it's being seen in a completely different way than it is previously. Right.
Cath Bishop:Absolutely, and I guess the bottom line is culture matters. It matters to performance, it matters to wellbeing, and those are things that all our organisations care about, and we have different perspectives now on why it matters. You know how impactful it is and I think perhaps you know a couple of decades ago it wasn't so clear how culture would affect the bottom line or how it would affect somebody's experience of work, because we just weren't looking at those things. But now, in this world of cultural reviews, of understanding that actually we shouldn't be damaging people in the process of going to work or playing sport or being at school, we need to take this issue and look at it very differently and educate ourselves to be better at it.
Colin D Ellis:Yeah, and it's probably a good place. A good segue into bio is because when I first started work as a teller from Nat West Bank in St Helens many, many years ago, I remember my dad probably the only pep talk he gave me about work was to head down, bum up, do as your boss told you. That was very much the climate of culture. You didn't get a say in culture. It wasn't something that you did, and you know, over time, one of the things that I learned when I became a manager in the late 1990s in the UK, when I transitioned to a new country in New Zealand and then to Australia, is that actually, if you don't take the time to build a team, if you don't take the time to make agreements, if you don't take the time to set expectations about what's appropriate, what's not, then what ends up happening is everybody does what they think is right, and sometimes that's magic and it works. It's like, oh, it's great.
Colin D Ellis:And culture is one of those things that when everything's going well, it's invisible, but it only takes one thing to break it. And you know, during my 30 year career as a permanent employee, I've seen many instances where things break, you know, as an employee in the private sector, especially as an employee in the public sector or in government. Sometimes it only takes one bad apple to spoil the fruit bowl, and this is why I think it's crucially important that leaders understand culture, the mechanics of it, so that they can learn from the mistakes, or they could. They've got the knowledge that I wish that I would have had as a manager when I first started work.
Cath Bishop:Yeah, I feel I've been on that same journey to working out what is culture, and it's invisible, and yet we all feel it. And I think I first started thinking about it in a high performance sporting environment. So when I was training, quite a few years ago now, as an Olympic rower, I've appeared about 10 years trying to work out what is performance and what is the environment in which I can start to work out what I'm capable of and work within a team with others. Then I realized there were factors that were affecting us that weren't written on the training program. It wasn't about how long we trained or how hard we trained.
Cath Bishop:This environment within which we were training was impacting on us as individuals, as a team, and on the performance, and so I started getting really fascinated, because it's a world where you're always trying to improve, you're always trying to get better, and I could see that there were aspects of the culture at times that were really holding us back, and yet at that time it didn't feel like we had the information or insights, or that the leaders in that environment had those insights either, to really harness culture to help us, and so inevitably, it got in the way and I thought, well, I want to understand more about this and then I've seen that in the world of work since again, helping organizations who often want to talk about topics of high performance and better teamwork and engaging people and in order to do that, it's not just a tick box exercise. We need to understand this thing. That is culture, the way we go about doing stuff and helping leaders to have conversations and be able to take action?
Colin D Ellis:Yeah, and that's the work that we do now. We're both self-employed people who I would suggest that we were curious about this thing called culture. We've not only educated ourselves. We've written books, we've recorded podcasts and videos, we do speeches, we do programs, all of these things.
Colin D Ellis:And I think it's important to say when we ask the question, why don't leaders understand culture? It's not an aggressive, we're not betraying the principles of our own podcast, so why don't they understand culture? I think we're coming at it from a position of empathy is that leaders, they're not taught how to build Because they're not taught about the mechanics of culture. They're not taught well, these are the pillars of culture and actually you need to be really kind of specific about the way that you define it and you need to involve people.
Colin D Ellis:And you talked about high performance and often I'll hear an organization or a senior leader say, oh, what we want is a high performance team, and we talked about this beforehand when we were planning. It's like, maybe, maybe, just start with team. How do you do that first Before you get to this kind of goal of high performance? Well, what does a really great team look like? So I think, in asking the question and as we go through today's podcast, is why don't leaders understand culture? Not only will we answer that question and provide some insights, but I think we're coming at it from a very empathetic, compassionate perspective to sort of say hey, listen, we also understand why.
Cath Bishop:Yeah, I think so. Empathy, curiosity is the other thing that's driven us, I think, a topic like culture you've never finished learning about it, and so we want to give other people confidence, to get curious about how they can influence it. Well, all influencing culture all the time, and yet often, when we're leaving it to chance, we're not really taking control of how we could contribute. So I completely agree there's huge opportunity in this area that, again, we want to help people be more confident, to just seize and think about yeah, how could I see this differently? And that example you gave there of, yeah, I want a high performing team. Do you know what? We're going to be busting? Some myths, aren't we? There's some language that's used in the workplace around culture that probably needs to shift in order to think about the reality of this. This is about what people experience. It's not just what we put on the wall.
Colin D Ellis:Put on the wall. There's a place to start. Let's talk about that. There's a lot of cultural window dressing.
Colin D Ellis:There's a lot of organisations now again coming up from a position of empathy is they want to be seen to be doing the right things, and I think that's okay. But if you're just doing it for doing its sake and, as Cath said, it tick in the box, then actually it can be detrimental to the kind of environment that you're looking to create, because you end up coming up with a vision statement, a sense of aspiration or a purpose. You know how you want to be viewed in the world, or you come up with a set of values, as Cath said, these things that are often painted on the wall. You know, for me, values are the kind of things that you'd live. You don't laminate them, you don't put them on a wall.
Colin D Ellis:Often it's a sign that people don't really understand what this thing called culture is, because they're having to remind people of it all of the time. And so I think that collective understanding is really, really important, not only to make sure that culture is practiced really well, and one of the issues that most organizations face is this concept of silos, where you get one person that understands it and six people that don't understand it, and so everybody does it in a slightly different way. But also to avoid those kind of almost potential for toxicity within culture, which is one of the big things that we see in the media all of the time, and so culture is something that needs to be lived. So I think you're absolutely right. Putting it on the wall is fine, providing that people understand it. If they don't understand it, then actually all you're doing is creating a bigger problem, because people can point to the wall and say well, I know someone in the senior position who's not doing that.
Cath Bishop:One of the things that really helped me when I was trying to understand I'm still trying to understand culture, when I was really trying to learn more about it. Think about what are the frameworks, how can we see this differently? I went back to the father of cultural theory, if you like, in organizations, and Edgar Schein, and he talks about these different levels, that there is this superficial level. That's the stuff on the walls, it's the stuff that we might say in a speech or in a town hall meeting, the stuff that's written down.
Cath Bishop:But that isn't culture. It's actually how that is practiced in reality and what people then experience. And once you start to see what people experience and then the beliefs that develop from that, then you're starting to understand culture. And so one of the things that we do in our work is help people get to that deeper level of what's going on, to notice it, Because it's not coming up in your spreadsheets, but it's what's driving the figures that come up in your spreadsheets. And so I think thinking about those different levels and seeing your organization slightly differently what is it people are experiencing, not just what you intend is a way to help leaders start to understand better, more deeply, the culture of your workplace.
Colin D Ellis:I think it's really important. If you're a manager listening to this and we use the word leader all the time I always think that and this could be a subject for future podcasts is leadership is a choice. It's a choice to make a positive difference to humans' lives. If you're a manager listening to this, what you have to understand is culture is your legacy. People will forget what you said. They'll forget what you did, they'll forget your technical expertise, but they'll never forget how you made them feel.
Colin D Ellis:And often, I think, we say to managers you need to get the best out of your team, and the way to do that is to create an environment in which people feel comfortable, when people feel challenged but not over challenged, where people have time to think, people have time to do, but they feel empowered to do so themselves. There's no one sat chirping on their shoulder saying this is what you must do in this way, and so I think, for managers, you really need to start thinking about okay, well, what is the information that I need in order to create this kind of deliberate environment to help people show up every day with the right attitude and deliver what's expected of them?
Cath Bishop:So tell me, colin, how do you define culture?
Colin D Ellis:Well, I think this is probably. Thanks, Cath, for putting me on the spot there. This is one of the challenges that we have with culture is, what people want is a really clear definition so they can go oh, that's what culture is. And there's a very famous author who said ah, culture's values plus behaviors. Everyone's sharing it on LinkedIn. Go, they're genius. It's really not genius. What that does is really simplify something that can be quite complex.
Colin D Ellis:For me, culture is the sum of everyone's everyone, and I mean everyone within a team, within an organization everyone's attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, traditions, skills, stories all of these things make up this thing, what we call culture, and in order to actually build something that's vibrant, that people can show up every day in, is you need to give them a say. Too often, I think, organizations are very good and some senior managers are going to say oh, we're going to have a cultural transformation program, which, firstly, betrays the fact that culture is evolutionary, exactly as you said, it doesn't change overnight, it's something that evolves over time. So that's one of the first mistakes that they make. And then they follow that up with a series of exercises or training sessions, almost to tick off oh, we've done that. We've done that we've done that to fix what's broken, without acknowledging that most cultures do some stuff really really well. They have some really good human beings working for them and all they want to do is an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. That's never changed. But they also want to make a difference themselves and they want to contribute.
Colin D Ellis:So that's certainly how I see culture. How about for you, Cath? How do you define?
Cath Bishop:I mean, there are so many different versions out there books written about it, feces yeah, you name it. I try and go with the simple starting point. It's the way we do things collectively together. So it's more than about just one person and even shorter. It's how it's how we do things. Often in the workplace, we focus massively on what we do by when. So our whole electronic calendar is organised around a list of tasks and a set of timings, usually 60 minutes or 30 minutes at a time.
Cath Bishop:But culture is about how we do all the things on our to-do list. And, of course, yeah, it isn't something that's easily captured, and I think that is one of the big reasons why it's hard for leaders to understand it. You can't just have it in one set of figures or in three sentences or in two bullet points. That, of course, doesn't stop it being really important arguably the most important thing about our work and our performance and whatever it is that you're interested in achieving through our organisations. But I think that difficulty of measuring culture is something that often puts people off getting more interested in it, and yet what we want to do is encourage people to get interested and thinking about how you can measure something that it is about quality and not just a quantity of things. So it's the way we do things.
Colin D Ellis:It's how we do stuff together and it's crucially important that we do that because and both you and I have done significant amount of research in this area every bit of research that's done around business performance comes back. The number one determinant of team and organisation success is culture, always has been and it always will be. You know, even when I think back to when I was happiest as a young employee and you know man in the Tills and in St Helens we had great camaraderie. We knew how to serve our customers. We knew the targets the bank had, which was always making money, let's be honest. But we took great satisfaction when our Tills balanced and my customer service rates were high. That was what gave us that sense of real pride.
Colin D Ellis:But organizations that do their research, they know that actually, if they invest time and money and that's often a problem, talk a little bit about that when they invest time and money to build the conditions for success, they get it. When they don't, then it becomes this never-ending challenges how do we be successful? How do we be successful? And what we end up doing is creating almost this combatant culture where people are kind of ping-finger pointing and blame and there's a lot of anxiety and stress, and we push people and we drive people Rather than encouraging them, empowering them and let them do their thing within the boundaries of the culture that we've collectively defined, and that's the thing that leads to success.
Cath Bishop:And that's one of my favorite topics and angles into culture is how we define success, because actually that sets off a whole train of Behaviors and ways of thinking and ways of interacting. So if our definition of success is Is one that drives behaviors that are dysfunctional, that aren't about working with each other, that are potentially even about working against each other, then we get into trouble on the cultural front. So how we define success is a is a huge area that we'll dive into in another conversation.
Colin D Ellis:Yeah and someone who's been an Olympic athlete, you know I get out of breath just reading about your achievements, Cath is that if you make the medal the goal, you can achieve the medal, but you can go about it in ways that Undermine the mental health and the well-being of the athlete in that context. So I think this is another reason why it's critically important that leaders understand culture is they understand the very human factors Involved on a person-to-person basis? I think too often what what leaders will try and do is like oh Well, we've set the vision for everyone, or we've set the values for everyone, right, well, that's that done, what's next? And it really is about understanding the very Human element and the fact that that's different for each individual person.
Cath Bishop:Culture is never done never done it's never fixed, it's never finished, and even that Sort of language betrays a sense that someone hasn't really understood culture. If that's how how they're thinking but of course we do hear that language in inside workplaces all the time I think that the sports World offers us a great. It's a really easy way of thinking about how the cost of the medal is important. It's not okay, as we've seen in the gymnastics world, to have gymnasts abused on the way to winning a medal. It's not okay for Lance Armstrong to finish the Tour de France seven times in first place and winning, but doing so through cheating, through doping. It's not okay for someone like Johnny Wilkinson to be the hero in 2003 and kick that final drop goal that meant we won the World Cup the only time so far in our history. When he now looks back on that and says he was suffering, he was damaged, he was depressed, you know there are better ways to succeed.
Cath Bishop:It's the culture that determines that. And even if you get, maybe, some kind of short-term outcome you've got the cup, you've got the trophy, you've got the quarterly results it's usually then, if it comes with a high human cost, it's at the cost of your next set of results as well, you can't sustain the performance. I think we all know we have a responsibility, that we shouldn't be doing things at all costs to damage people, and that's a shift in attitudes. Isn't it A shift in society that we now care about this? It isn't okay to abuse athletes on the way to winning or to burn out all of our people in the organization in order to get this year's results, and that's part of what's motivating us to bring these conversations about culture to the fore.
Colin D Ellis:Yeah, and, of course, it's not just athletes. As someone who worked in the corporate world, I worked in the public and private sector. People are suffering every single day and you might be one of those listening to this podcast right now and if you are, we feel your pain Certainly. I've been there.
Colin D Ellis:I've worked in those toxic environments where leaders didn't understand culture, they didn't understand the impact that their behavior had. They didn't understand the impact that the words had or their attitudes had towards the way the work gets done. And what that does is it has a ripple effect into our lives that we then take home. And I know myself, you know, when you're not feeling it at work, you're not feeling at home. Things just aren't working and it has a real impact on every single area of your life. And so when we come back to the question, why don't leaders understand the culture? You know kind of, why don't they understand that the impact that their behavior has on, you know kind of how people actually lives their lives, because you know, as I said, it only takes one bad manager to ruin the life of an individual or a group of individuals, although I also joke that you know it only takes one bad manager to unite individual.
Colin D Ellis:You might be listening to this going. We know who the problem is and we love talking about it, but from a management and leadership perspective, it is your job to understand this. And so when we talk about curiosity, so I guess, Cath, we should probably talk about because we weren't born working for ourselves. We each had separate careers. Where did it start for you, this interesting culture, because I think that would be useful for people. Was it a book? What peaked the curiosity? What really got you interested, and where have you built up your knowledge over time?
Cath Bishop:I think the real moment where I stopped in my tracks and started to get deeply curious about this was after my second Olympics, when I'd performed really badly, I'd come ninth and I'd come seventh in the first Olympics and I then followed all the rules of the culture for four years, you know, training harder than anyone else, being tough all the time, showing no weakness, making sure I berated myself and everyone around me if we had a poor result. You know, I kind of played to the rules of that environment. I took on board the culture and you know, at the end of it I felt exhausted, burnt out and I'd performed poorly and I thought there has to be a better way of doing things. You know, I look back. I'm not proud of the performance. I don't think it's as good as I could be. But I also had a miserable time along the way and I don't think it needs to be like that. And that's what made me kind of really stop in my tracks and also start taking responsibility for it, because I had been contributing to that. I'd taken it all on board. I played my role in making it a not very enjoyable environment for others.
Cath Bishop:So you know, part of it was for myself to think about what experience did I create for others as well as what was the experience I was having? That wasn't one I wanted to repeat and that got me curious about. Could it be different and, if so, what would that require of me and others around? And I started reading much more. I started getting interested in psychology, in understanding what is culture and how do we influence it. There was a lot of research coming out at that time just over sort of 20 years ago that was really helping us to learn. You know the impact that it has on our brains when we're in an environment where we're full of fear, where we can't speak up, where we don't feel safe and all of these things. Now you know there's a lot more literature and research to help us, but there's an assumption leaders know about all of this stuff and they don't, and that's one of the things we want to really kind of bring out. What was your seminal moment?
Colin D Ellis:School wasn't my thing. I left school with very few qualifications. I felt like as soon as I got into the work environment that was where I needed to be and I wanted to be. And yet when I left school and started work, I was quite shocked at some of the behavior around me. I'd never wanted to be that person. My mum had brought me up to try and have a positive impact on other people. The family we had a large family, extended family. They're full of humour, being from Liverpool area, full of humour. They wouldn't let you take yourself too seriously.
Colin D Ellis:But as someone who played a lot of football when I was younger, we wanted to win, but we wanted to win in the right way. I think winning's become a dirty word, Cath. I don't think winning's a good thing, providing you do it in the right way. You said it before we don't want win at all costs. That's not what the goal is here. So for me, when I became a manager really in my late 20s what I started to do was to really notice how people were behaving around me and the things that they were doing. I was fortunate.
Colin D Ellis:My first manager when I became a manager was a very. He was a highly emotionally intelligent person. We've downplayed emotional intelligence for far too long within our cultures Soft skills and fluffy stuff when those human-to-human elements are crucially important. And he said to me we didn't use the word curious back in the late 1990s. There's a lot of words we didn't use back in the late 1990s. But he said to me he said watch and learn. He said you're going to be interacting with some very senior people. I was managing these big year 2000 projects showing my age there. He said watch and learn. So I bought a little book. I bought like a little black book. Shows you how nerdy I was. My little black book wasn't for people's names, it was for things I've learned. And I started writing down the things that people did that were positive and negative. And I remember one guy up in the Northeast region. He was in Middlesbrough. He talked over the top of his staff all of the time and I remember writing down don't talk over the top of other people Because I could see their reactions. And so over time what I did is I built up this picture of not only what good leadership looked like but what good teams looked like as well.
Colin D Ellis:And I remember we emigrated as a family, my wife and my then one year old boy to New Zealand. I remember my first boss in New Zealand said to me is that we've hired you because we want something different and your CV, your resume, says that you're a different kind of person. We want something different. I felt pressure to do something different.
Colin D Ellis:Now, the things that I did culturally were really quite different. I had like 17 minute meetings. We would have stand-ups before people were having stand-up meetings, but also I would go into networking events. Back when we did these things networking events and I would just ask people what do you do to motivate your team? What interest in team building things do you do? And I remember one guy said to me is like, oh, we bring in external speakers to give us a different perspective on things, and so that's something I started doing back in 2017. It's a 2017, it's a 2017, so 17 years ago is bringing in external speakers and I would pay and I would go into bats and say this is why it's important for teamwork.
Colin D Ellis:We adopted lots of different things that people started to copy. Since then, it's been books and research and all of these things to give me an insight into either how to do something or how to not do something. These were the things that I think to get those insights is really crucial to my own team development moving forward. Do you still have the black book? I do still have the black book. I've got three of them now, ooh, and they're in the gallery. We've moved a few times. I hope I still have the black book actually now think about it.
Cath Bishop:We might need to get those out. I think at some point we might need to get those black books out someday.
Colin D Ellis:They're fascinating because they contain a load of random quotes as well from people that I read I'm like, oh, that's really good and I should use that, and some of them I turn into slides and some of the things that I've memorized. But I think back without those. I'd like to think that culture's my legacy. It's still keeping in touch with lots of my own team members, which I think is always a good sign. Is some of those things that we did. What they did was they encouraged camaraderie, which I think is crucially important, because when you've got good camaraderies, kind of empathy is the glue that holds teams together. They generate laughter, which I think is crucially important, because it's a great way to minimize anxiety and stress and obviously helps shared stories, but not only that it provides other people with ideas that then they can use. So culture becomes the legacy as well.
Cath Bishop:I'm gonna try really hard not to talk over you, and that point's really clear now from your story. So I'm trying anyway. I would never want to do that, but I've really taken that on board. One of the things we want to do on this podcast is always give some tips, some helpful prompts, and so we're always gonna give one thing that you could do to find out more about your culture or help develop it in a constructive way. We're going to give you one thing to get curious about, one thing to uncover within the cultures, because often it's things that we're not immediately, you know aren't obvious to us.
Cath Bishop:So we've looked at this today, about this bigger question of why don't leaders understand culture. You know it's not straightforward, it's not an easy thing, it is complex, it's something we're often not really taught, we don't learn it at school, often it's not even on a leadership program, and suddenly we end up as a leader, though, and it's expected of us that we know what to do. So there is this kind of real gap that, again, we want to help people to get more confidence in, and it's something that I think there are shifting views now in why it matters, how it matters. Our expectations are different inside organizations and therefore we need to be leading in a way where culture is the priority. So today we're going to again think about one thing you could do, one thing you could get curious about and one thing for you to uncover, and so what are we going to suggest and encourage people to do?
Colin D Ellis:I think to do is to start educating yourself. Yeah, read some stuff. Talk to some people about what they do. Make it super simple. Subscribe to this podcast. Obviously I mean that sounds super salesy, but there are other podcasts out there as well. You know anything that you can do to educate yourself. Just make a start, great.
Cath Bishop:And to get curious. You know, really ask yourself and people around you the question of what is the culture like in your organization? How would you describe it? Can you describe it in three words? What sort of animal would it be? What sort of language would you use? And actually, what is the language that others around you might use? And are there gaps in between how you see it and how people in other departments or at different levels of the organization see it? So get curious. How would you define it? And start to understand it, start to describe it, and then what do we want to uncover?
Colin D Ellis:Find out if what's on the wall is what's being experienced. Like I said at the top of the show, there's a lot of window dressing. There's a lot of visions and values and behaviors. Is that the lived experience of you and your fellow employees? I think that's definitely something to uncover. If there's a disparity between what's been defined and what's been lived, and hopefully then, through the course of this podcast, is will help you bridge that canyon or fill it in. I don't know what the right thing to do is. Yeah.
Cath Bishop:Closing the gap. Closing the gap yeah.
Colin D Ellis:Or whichever metaphor works for you to help you to build the bridge to a better workplace.
Cath Bishop:Sounds good, looking forward to our next conversation. Colin, me too. Thanks, cat. Thanks for listening to today's Inside Out Culture podcast.
Colin D Ellis:Please remember to like, subscribe and, of course, share with others who you think may be interested.
