Inside Out Culture

Why did the Metropolitan Police not deal with its toxic people?

• Inside Out Culture • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Baroness Casey's report into the Metropolitan Police in the UK painted a horrific picture of a workplace culture at its very worst.

Sexism, misogyny, bullying, sexual harassment, rape and murder are all mentioned in the report into the UKs biggest police force. Yet, what can be done if the organisation can't rid itself of the people who got it into this position in the first place? Why do we insist on invoking ‘bad apple’ language when the problems are much more deeply rooted?

On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast, we look at the long-term effects of tolerating toxic people and what organisations can do to safeguard their cultures and avoid hiring the people that might hold them back.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

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Colin:

Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis.

Cath:

And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.

Colin:

We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think.

Cath:

Hi and welcome to today's episode of the Inside Out Culture Podcast. I'm Cath Bishop.

Colin:

And I'm Colin Ellis and this week we're going to be answering the question why did the Met Police not deal with its toxic people? And in preparing for the show Cath, I really got to thinking that this is an issue that lots of people are dealing with right now. There was a story in the media just at the weekend about an organization potentially toxic person. So I think this is relevant for pretty much any organisation who's got toxic people, and kind of just to make them aware of what to do when they do have toxic people. And it's probably more prevalent than we think, don't you think?

Cath:

Well, a lot of the culture reviews essentially start highlighting stories, don't they? About toxic people that everyone kind of knew was there and we knew their behaviour wasn't great, but it was never really dealt with, and I think that's what we want to take a look at, isn't it? What is it in the environment? What is it that leaders do or don't do? That mean kind of everyone knows, actually, who the real bad apples might be that awful phrase that I actually really dislike, but we'll come back to that in a minute we should talk about that, yeah yeah, because language is an important part of this, isn't it?

Colin:

yeah, it really is, and, and I think often it's too easy and, as we've talked about before with regards to culture, what we like to do is try and fit it in and into a nice neat box, and I think there's still a lot of that that goes on. It's like oh, he's the problem, he's the bad apple, let's remove him from the fruit bowl, and it's not as simple as that, and that's definitely something that came through in the review into the Metropolitan Police, which we're using as our case study for today's show.

Cath:

Yes, and whenever I think of that fruit bowl analogy, then for me the really, really important bit is what is it that's making that fruit go off? What is it that's making those apples go rotten? Ie, there's something in the air, in the environment that is part of this behaviour. So it is a real red flag for me if I ever hear this oh, it's just a few bad apples. And I've heard that in a sports context where leadership at the highest level after we've had reports like the white review into the abuse of gymnasts and reviews in fact across a host of Olympic and Paralympic sports in the UK, where the sort of highest level of leadership have said oh it's, you know, most people are okay in the system, it's just a few bad apples.

Cath:

And at that point you know you've really got an issue with the leadership, because it's a denial of the issue, it's a minimalization of the issue, it's a refusal to address it, to acknowledge how important it is, and it's also an abdication of responsibility for the environment which is enabling these so-called bad apples to exist. And that was something that, after the Baroness Case's review of the Met Police, was so frustrating to hear Mark Rowley, the commissioner for the Met Police refuse to accept it was systemic and fight over that language and that wording and in itself that linguistic battle was a denial was at some level refusing to accept the findings, even though they were based on hard, hard evidence. So language is important and that bad apples phrase do not let that stay, because that is just a fig leaf, it's just some temporary cover and you've got to get underneath to work out what's happening in that fruit bowl.

Colin:

Yeah, exactly right, we've got the whole thing. We've got apples, we've got figs, we've got everything going on here in this podcast. But it's true, it really is. And I love what you said about the application of responsibility, because it becomes too easy, as I said, just to make it about that one piece of fruit, that one individual. And yet we know it's not. There'll be people listening to this podcast who are working with those kinds of people and they're affected day in, day out by their language, by their behavior, by their lack of productive work, that's. You know, toxicity comes in all forms. Everybody's got a job to do and what we see is this ripple effect of this one individual and it starts to literally infect everybody else.

Colin:

I read a really interesting piece. We're going to be talking a little bit about the police today as the case study. I read a really interesting piece by a former police officer and he says this is not just a few bad apples and we'll put this in our culture leaders action sheet, a link to this article and he said I'll just quote from this it's a vicious cycle. Police develop a reputation for toxic culture. People who might otherwise be attracted to police work for the right sorts of reasons, sense of duty care for the community, become alienated by the prevailing toxic culture and then are driven away and the people who remain develop a real warrior mentality and the toxicity increases.

Colin:

And we see this and I see this in my work as well with corporates is if that individual or the individuals aren't dealt with, then their behavior starts to spread and people start to become the kind of humans that they never want to be. Gossip is a great example of something. It's one of the worst things you can do to another human being. And yet when you're in that kind of environment and there is this abdication of responsibility or accountability, as you say, kat, then it starts to spread and then the problem just becomes bigger and bigger and bigger.

Cath:

Reminds me of one of those cliches that I think actually is helpful. I'm usually a bit suspicious of cliches, and there are quite a lot around culture, but let me try this one that culture is about the standards you tolerate. It's the behavi standards you tolerate. It's the behaviors you tolerate. It's not the behaviors that are on the wall or in your code of conduct or what you agree on your you know off-site meeting. They are the lowest behaviors that get tolerated in the environment. And that's quite a useful lens, I think, because it's quite a practical thing to think about. Yeah, what's the worst stuff that actually still goes unchallenged? Because it's quite a practical thing to think about. Yeah, what's the worst stuff that actually still goes unchallenged, accepted, because that's what becomes the norm. And I think it is that sense of not seeing things, not really recognising stuff that's right in front of your eyes, that you wouldn't think acceptable in your own home, and yet somehow in that environment, in your own home, and yet somehow in that environment it goes unquestioned. And that is undoubtedly something that Baroness Casey highlighted a lot and really felt that the Met Police were not necessarily alive to the risk and the gravity of the situation.

Cath:

So her review came out in March 2023, 350 pages. It's actually a really important read. I'd actually recommend it to leaders who want to understand a bit more about culture, about what happens when it goes wrong, because it's very real a lot of the stories that are in it and she does a really good job of bringing that evidence and, time and time again, flagging what's going on at the deeper level in terms of the mindset and the behaviours and the relationships and the leadership involved. So it's called An Independent Review into the Standards of Behaviour and Internal Culture of the Metropolitan Police Service, and there's one point that comes out really well in her summary and through the report that I think we should talk about a bit more.

Cath:

She says if a plane fell out of the sky tomorrow, a whole industry would stop and ask itself why. It would be a catalyst for self-examination and then root and branch reform. Instead, the Met preferred to pretend that their own perpetrators of unconscionable crimes were just bad apples or not police officers at all. So throughout this review, I've asked myself time and time again if these crimes cannot prompt that self-reflection and reform, then what will it take? So, as well as a really piercing question of the Met Police at the end. For me, this point goes to the heart of whether you are enabling yourselves to consciously develop the culture to look at what's working, to look at what isn't working and be proactively shaping it, to be learning.

Colin:

To be learning, absolutely right, and I think often that's missed, Cath.

Colin:

I think one of the things that Baroness Casey also said in the report is she talked about the defensive attitude to the scandals, that they played them down, that they dismissed them as procedural errors and processes and methods hadn't been followed, rather than what's the learning that our people need in order that we can get better as human beings, in order that we can treat not only each other with respect.

Colin:

Because I think you know one of the things the Casey report it wasn't just external in the way that the police treated kind of the general public, it's the way they treated each other. It's absolutely appalling the way they treated each other. And she said, rather than them being seen as process and procedural issues, it's to actually hold up your hands, listen and seek to change, and that's the learning culture piece is, you know kind of what are the tactics, what are the programs that we're going to do? And listen, we're not advocating for kind of sticking plasters. We're not advocating for tick box culture where you do a little bit of this tick, a little bit of that. We're not advocating for tick box culture where you do a little bit of this tick a little bit of that we're talking about. What's the learning that people need to actually transform the way things get done, as Baroness Casey alluded to, with the aeroplane industry?

Cath:

Yeah, so these defensive behaviours are a sign that we're not open to learning, and if we're not open to learning, that's really dangerous. It somehow means what we think we're already perfect, we think we are setting the standards, and I can see that's challenging for a police force that sort of has to hold absolute standards in terms of the laws. But you as an organization, whatever you do, must always keep learning at the heart of what you do. So again, we see this tragically in the healthcare industry, where a lack of learning means serious loss of lives, and we have any number of reports showing that. And it is interesting.

Cath:

The air, the aviation industry, is often held up, and there's a great book by Matthew Syed called black box thinking, which really highlights this. So I'd totally recommend that book as well if you industry is often held up, and there's a great book by Matthew Syed called Black Box Thinking, which really highlights this. So I'd totally recommend that book as well if you want to think about a learning culture, what it really means, and that highlights how, in the aviation industry, the safety record has been revolutionized in the last 100 years. The number of people who die in airplane accidents is tiny. We even had one year recently where it was zero, and yet the number of people who die in healthcare incidents has actually probably increased. Given the recent reports over the last few years, it's certainly not improved, which is kind of madness. But there is a culture in aviation of always learning. The whole concept of the black box means there's a crash and you find out what went wrong and as a result of that you of course change things and over years certain kind of key crashes and aviation disasters have caused massive changes to the hierarchy in a cockpit, making sure you listen to the most junior person, that they have a voice. When you are checking things, you have a different type of checklist that you are always learning. Pilots will always log a near miss, so if they go out and they come very close to another airplane, they will go back and report that they won't try and cover it up.

Cath:

But in many other worlds we see a cover-up mentality.

Cath:

That means there is no learning and at that point you know those often hide the seeds of toxic behavior. Where we're not willing to admit mistakes, we don't have safety in the culture to do that and one cover-up usually then leads to an even bigger cover-up and then there's a lack of trust and we're in a real mess. So I often see learning behaviours as a real sign of where a culture is. It's sort of maturity and health, and also it's a really concrete way, if you're worried about your culture, to start improving things by increasing the number of conversations, reflection conversations how can we do something better? How might we think differently? You know, coming from a sports background, this to me is second nature, where every day we were there to learn and get better and as human, we never stop having the ability to improve and grow and learn new things. So it's an innate part of something we can do, whatever level, whatever rank, whatever role, whatever industry we're in, and yet somehow it's not become a core part of how many organizations operate.

Colin:

It's something I'm really passionate about, Cath, and it's also something I've been critical of companies about as well, despite my positive nature is that I think often organizations have concentrated their learning on technical skills, and I think that's right to a point. But I think what goes missing, or what's still missing, from almost every organization I start to work with. Every time I start to work with a new organization, I was like okay, well, what kind of management programs do you have in place to teach them about culture? You know how do they develop the skills they need to build really safe, productive, engaged teams? You know what skills do they have? And you know, almost always it's like, oh, you mean like. You mean like a leadership program? It's like, well, no, because leadership programs generally are for high potential. You know kind of people and we've got a pipeline of people who we expect to achieve these leadership positions, and so often I think, and then the next question will be is like, oh, you mean like learning from failure? It's like listen, some of the best learnings you can actually get is from the success of you know kind of what did the culture do? What did this group of people work on together? How did they culture do? What did this group of people work on together? How did they do it? How did they collaborate? They demonstrated resilience. But what does that actually mean practically, and how can we factor that in?

Colin:

And I think organizations are stuck certainly the corporate ones are stuck in this almost tornado of busyness to ever make the development of a learning culture and learning about culture a priority, and so we end up with an inability to deal with toxic people when they arise.

Colin:

We're almost afraid because we're locked into these pleasant cultures where we're trying to be nice to everybody and listen. We want to see those really great human behaviors towards each other. Of course we do, but we also want no tolerance for poor performance, for poor behavior, and we need to make sure that people have got those skills such that we're good at identifying what makes the as we talked about, what makes the bad apples go off. You know, kind of what's that root cause. You know, know what's endemic within our organization and how are we teaching people how to spot it? And I think that the development of a learning culture is is is critical to that, but also learning about culture too, so that people are actually got the foresight to be able to spot it and, you know, can kind of spot it at a distance as well and then I have the skills to be able to know what to do with it.

Cath:

I think there's a real awareness piece, isn't there? Before you can get to a point where you're able to deal with your toxic person, you have to be confident, to be aware, to be noticing, picking up on what's happening inside a team. How are people behaving differently in certain situations? What happens under stress? Which behaviors come out then? So we have to be aware in the good times or in the normal times of what's going on, not suddenly oh, I've got some problem and now I don't know what to do. So I think you're absolutely right.

Cath:

It's that flagging that cultural radar.

Cath:

I mean, it's not rocket science, intellectually, and yet it is about making sure we notice things that are happening around us on a human level.

Cath:

Like the Met Police, they are so overloaded with targets, with short-term metrics, that they put all of their efforts and they are not incentivized, encouraged, given any space to think about what sort of long-term culture is being developed from the behavior that happens today, because actually we've got to hit this next target, chase this, get this next set of figures in, get the monthly figures on this.

Cath:

Oh, there's a new initiative here, and so that actually doesn't help the business of policing either, but it certainly takes leaders' eyes and managers' eyes away from this and that plays into the hand of people who have not got good intentions. It leaves them to go about their business literally unnoticed, hidden in plain sight, and so I think for me, we've got to be careful about what we're measuring and thinking about the behavior that our targets are actually creating, incentivising, developing over time, and thinking about where we really want the cultural behaviours to be going longer term and understanding that gap. That's a leadership question there to be thinking about. What's the gap between what we're doing today and the sorts of behaviours we want to be fostering long term? We want to be fostering long-term, and if we can't start creating space and time for leaders to reflect on that, then we're going to get into trouble usually of a cultural nature at some point.

Colin:

I think as well, central to that, Cath, is ensuring that when people are actually brought into an organisation and there's no doubt that there's a lot of pressure externally on the Met Police to hire officers, you know kind of to maintain public confidence, public safety, all of these things but they're not just looking for someone with a pulse. You know, it's got to be someone that can contribute to the values. We should definitely do a show on values. I know this is something that organizations are struggling with is what are those core values? And then how do we use them to recruit people who can help us to build the kind of culture that we're looking for?

Colin:

You know Baroness Casey said this in a report that the Met Police had initiativitis. You've got all of these different little projects, little initiatives going on everywhere and yet none of them seem to be centered around. Well, how do we improve our recruitment practices? How do we hire the kind of people that will stick and help us to address this toxic culture? You know Darren Slade mentioned that, that vicious cycle and I think that the values are central to making sure we hire people who fit the mold of the culture that we want to create, and this is why the Met Police hasn't changed for years and years and years and years is those initiatives that they've been undertaking haven't actually moved the needle with regards to the culture.

Colin:

So actually the toxic culture has never actually been addressed because we haven't hired the people against the values, we haven't taken the time to understand well what actually motivates you. Why do you want to join the police and then dig deeper below the? I want to give back to the community, I want to add value, which are all noble things, but what's the core of how does that person, how does that individual's values contribute to what the Met's trying to do in the medium to longer term?

Cath:

It's a great point. So what does that mean? To recruit on values? Colin, you talk about it, then I think that a lot of people will go oh, that sounds good, but I don't really know what that means, because I've got this sort of competency table and I'm looking at the technical skills, because that's what's on everyone's CV. How do I recruit for values?

Colin:

Yeah, it's a great question. So organizations are often, I think, kind of blinded by this notion. We have to hire for cultural fit and then ask a series of standard questions. And you know, if you ask standard questions, you get standard people. You get standard people.

Colin:

And I think that you know if you're working in a recruitment talent development yes, you want to have a kind of core set of questions that are important that you want to ask people. You know, I always say your technical skills get you an interview, but it's really your values that get you the job. Your values, your personality, that's the thing that should get you the job. And what you do is you, let's say you have a value of. It's cool to be kind, which is a great value, which I read this recently it's cool to be kind as you're asking questions. Okay, well, what does it mean to be cool, to be kind? That's one of our values, that's one of the things that we hold to be dear. Give me an example, or imagine yourself in the role Too many organizations.

Colin:

What they do is they send the questions to recruiters so that people can prepare for it, like it's some kind of exam. Of course, if you study really well for an exam. You pass the test. I want to know what people are like in an interview situation at that moment in time. What's that stress test? So we're putting you on the spot with regards to our values. How do you respond?

Colin:

And, as a hiring manager, this is something I used to do as a hiring manager myself I'm looking for their immediate response.

Colin:

If their immediate response is to, almost metaphorically, throw their hands up in the air and go, well, I just don't know, well, they're going to default to a behavior that exists within the current culture, and that's not what we want. What we want is for them to be nimble, think on their feet, to actually say, oh, can I just give me a minute to think about that? That's okay. What we want is a measured reaction, kind of on a day-to-day basis. So I think you know it's to shy away from the standard questions is to, you know, really get people thinking about how they would contribute to the values you know, provide examples on things that they've done in relation to the values that you have as an organization and then dig a little deeper into their motivation is what you want to make sure is that they don't just want a job, but they want a career where they can positively contribute to the culture and to the people around them.

Cath:

I think that's an interesting point. I use that a lot, thinking about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation in coaching work that I do or talking to people who are leading teams, who you know, and often leaders will say oh, you know, people are a bit disengaged and how do I motivate people? And it's often a sort of almost misunderstanding of how motivation works. I mean A also, I can kind of create conditions for you, but I can't motivate you to do something. You know I have to think about creating an environment where it's really likely that you'll feel inspired or connected to the purpose, able to learn and grow and feel trusted and feel part of something, but I can't motivate you. Sometimes it's sort of done as almost right, you get over here, let me motivate you and then you're done and then we'll move on to something else. So I think motivation is often misunderstood, even though people realize it's important. They want a team engaged. It's the fuel of performance.

Cath:

But we tend to rely on our systems on extrinsic motivation, ie external stuff, the prize, the award we get, the salary, the bonus, these sort of external things, and we're a little bit trained often at school that it's about the prize or it's about the grades you get on your exam papers. All of this and that stuff is very temporary. It actually only motivates us in a very shallow way, and as soon as we get that, we want another one, we want the next prize, we want the next award, and so intrinsic motivation works at a much, much deeper level. It creates a real resilience and a resourcefulness within us, and it also helps us to be more creative, to be creative in the work that we do, and the sources of intrinsic motivation are based on purpose, mastery, learning that we've already talked about, so they work at a much deeper level. It's about having a voice, autonomy and feeling part of something, feeling you belong, feeling I'm, you know. Socially, we need that in order to thrive, and if managers and leaders could think also about creating that in the environment, then that is also. Managers and leaders could think also about creating that in the environment, then that is also really helpful to getting the best out of people and to think, though, how we're all going to contribute to that, for each other as well.

Cath:

So motivation is often misunderstood. We rely on the very shallow, narrow, extrinsic side of it, and I think there's a lot if we want to be building a positive culture that we could do to really understand, okay, what's really motivating at deeper level. Do we even ask that of each other? Why do we get out of bed in the morning? Why do we do the jobs that we do, what really matters to us? We tend to rely on the CV. That's extrinsic stuff. It's about your access to education, your qualifications, but it doesn't tell me what you really care about. It doesn't tell me what energizes you. Usually. It doesn't tell me what makes you kind of be at your best, or perhaps the things that you really struggle with, and so I always find CVs really limiting. But if I'm in a team with somebody going to work under pressure, doing important work, then I need to start to know what is really important to you, and that's also what helps you to connect, to bond, to feel part of something bigger.

Colin:

That was brilliant. That was so great, kat, that three. We should totally come back and do motivation. I wrote I captured motivation. We should do values, we should do motivation, but that is a I don't know. That was like a three minute segment. That was brilliant. On motivation, and I think often where organizations go wrong is that they hire for extrinsic, not intrinsic, motivation. So we should definitely come back to that Now before we do our three takeaways. I think the question that most people will have at this point in the podcast is all right, I've got a toxic person. What should I do? I recognize all of the things that you've been talking about. It's very real for me right now. So maybe we should just kind of quickly address what. What would be our recommendation? It kind of in your work, cath what have you seen? What? What's the most effective way of actually dealing with these toxic people?

Cath:

Of course, the most effective way is that you get hold of it early, you notice when things are starting to go out of place and you can then already call it out, and at that point it's quite easy for that person potentially to rein themselves in, to go oh yeah, okay is heavy. And that needs to be addressed immediately I mean not tolerated and so that you demonstrate to everyone else in the organization that these behaviors are not okay and it doesn't matter how high the sales targets might be for that person, it is not worth it because the damage they will do to everybody else is so enormous. So it is really about drawing that line and being absolutely clear. It's not tolerable and you're not going to sort of suddenly I don't know pretend it isn't happening, soften it, make allowances. That's the worst thing you can do, both for that person and particularly for everybody else. What do you think?

Colin:

Yeah, I think that's true. I think, particularly for everybody else is absolutely right. I think that you know, you really do have to consider. I think often what we do is we place our emphasis on the person without thinking about the wider culture and the team. As managers and I was probably guilty of this myself when I was a younger manager I wanted to avoid the confrontation with these toxic person. I'm like I don't want to deal with that person, which is completely the wrong thought process. The right thought process is I need to safeguard the culture for the rest of these people and deal with that one person.

Colin:

I think for me, setting expectations is really, really key.

Colin:

It's a core skill that's part of that learning culture is how do we set expectations, not only around performance, but around behavior?

Colin:

And then what's that really clear, simple process that I need to follow, supported usually by a people, professional, in order that I can remove that individual from the organization? I think there's a real reticence, and often it's brought on by the amount of work, which was definitely something that the Met Police faced. There was just so much work that they almost felt like they couldn't get rid of people because they couldn't put people onto rosters, but there has to be a real kind of focus on getting rid of those people. I often say that it's better to take one step back, to take two steps forward when it comes to safeguarding the culture, and that one step back is recognizing that, for a short period of time, there might be more work for the rest of the team, but actually, because the cloud of the toxicity is lifted. What this does, then, is it gives this opportunity for people to really bring their best self to work, to shine, and you find that the work gets done anyway, despite the fact that you're one toxic person down.

Cath:

For me there's an important mental calculation that the risk of action, the risk of conflict, feels unattractive. But you must calculate the risk of inaction because that can look pretty uncomfortable. So when you have that moment of avoidance which is really human, then absolutely you need support in this. But these things, a toxic situation, doesn't come overnight. It's actually the signs, have been there all along. So again, early you know, addressing of issues, making sure others can challenge and flag, so it's not just you're not the only voice, but thinking about those risks of inaction. I find quite helpful for someone to go yeah, I don't want to do this, but actually I don't want to do nothing either. And of course in some cases it's critical if we're at the level we're talking about in some of the stories in the Met Police.

Colin:

So we're at the time of the show where we provide you with our three takeaways. So, Cath, what should people do?

Cath:

So the do? I'm going to go back to learning. Make learning part of your success picture, so ensure that it is an aim in itself. I'm thinking of that famous story around Satya Nadella taking over Microsoft and saying we've got a know-it-all culture. We need to become a learn-it-all culture. So make learning part of everyday success, measure it, value it, recognize it, do more learning.

Colin:

And then, in order to something to be curious about, I think I'm going to link back to your the point that you made about motivation. I think that's a really important one. I think you know, be curious about what. Well, what really drives people to do their work? What gets them up in the morning, what keeps them at work during the day? You know what's that thing that they have? You know, is it internal, is it intrinsic, is it extrinsic? But really be curious about what drives people to do their work. And then, finally, what do you think is something that people need to uncover?

Cath:

Kat. So we've got to uncover. We've got to get better with that fruit bowl, We've got to know what is it making those apples go off sooner and making the other fruit start rotting around it? So what in your environment might be slowly undermining your culture, undermining your values? Let's notice those things early and pull them back. So what are the behaviours that go tolerated, that you kind of know they give you a slightly sort of icky feeling in your stomach, kind of know they're not helpful but we could address at this point without it being a major problem as well. So, just in your environment, uncover some of those things that could be undermining your values and your culture.

Colin:

Well, it's been another fantastic conversation, Cath, Thank you. Just a reminder to everybody out there you can email us your questions at insideoutculture at gmailcom. We would love to hear from you and answer your questions about what's relevant for you at this moment in time. But until then, a big thank you, Cath, for today's conversation.

Cath:

Great to chat again. Look forward to the next one. Thanks for listening to today's Inside Out Culture.

Colin:

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Cath Bishop

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Colin D Ellis

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