Inside Out Culture

Your Culture Questions Answered - Healthy conflict, toxic performance, new CEOs and more!

• Inside Out Culture • Season 1 • Episode 13

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On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.

Specifically we look at:

  • What are our thoughts on 'healthy conflict'? 
  • If we hire the 'right' people won't that automatically lead to a great culture?
  • How do you ensure that while fixing toxicity, instilling and upholding values, you are at the same time doing things that drive/liberate performance?
  • Can a toxic organisation perform well?
  • Will changing the operating model of a company automatically change its culture?
  • What happens to culture when you're waiting for a new CEO to start?

Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.

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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

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Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com

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Colin:

Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath.

Cath:

Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.

Colin:

We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think.

Colin:

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast.

Cath:

And today we are looking at more of your questions about culture, and of course, that means that we'll be diving into some of these really difficult dilemmas that you've been sending to us, and it also means we'll be trying to think through some frameworks, some ways of thinking about culture, because with these questions on a topic like this, it's not just about what's the right answer. There isn't one right answer. This is a really complex field, so we'll often also be unpicking and thinking about the framing of the question, where that's coming from, the assumptions behind it, as well as giving our ideas of different ways to work through it and think of different ways forward. So we've got some good ones today, haven't we?

Colin:

We've got some really good ones, and I think that's a good point is, culture is not something that you can copy, but what you can do is steal really great ideas from a typical scouser, reverting to type yeah, let's just steal ideas, but it is, you know, we, it's one of the things that we hope, uh, through the podcast, is you're inspired to try some different things, and please do send us your questions at insideoutculture, at gmailcom, if. If there's anything you want to know, we'd love to answer it on the podcast. All right, the first question, then, Cath, today is what are our thoughts on healthy conflict?

Cath:

So this as a phrase is an interesting concept. Healthy conflict. I have to say, when I'm working with teams, when I'm doing talks, it's often an area that gets a lot of questions how do we manage conflict? What is healthy conflict, what isn't healthy conflict? And, of course, conflict can look different in different teams in different circumstances. So I think there's something about.

Cath:

I actually find the word conflict not that helpful because it's so inherently negative and aggressive. And there's something about actually where we want to get to as a space where we're able to challenge each other and not immediately see that as, oh, we're in conflict because you've got a different view from me and you're disagreeing publicly in front of other people. So it actually comes back to whether we can create agreements and norms around what we think. You know I'm not going to use the word conflict, but healthy challenge, healthy debating, discussion, diverse viewpoints looks like. I mean, I've heard people talk about productive conflict and unproductive conflict and saying the real difference is productive conflict will move you forward. Yeah, there needs to be your somehow breaking through, you're coming out in some way with the path moving you forward from wherever you've got stuck. And unproductive conflict means you're getting trapped in sort of debates that keep you stuck where you are. You're trying to prove, you're trying to perhaps get into a personal area of you're right, this isn't working, rather than well, what are all the different ways in which we could move it forward? And whilst we might have some different ideas, let's start thinking about what would be the impact of the way you prefer to do it and the impact of the way I prefer to do it, and so actually, then you get into more of an understanding approach and if I draw on the sort of training, the practice, experience of the diplomatic work we did in negotiation, then a couple of the sort of core rules, if you like, or aims that we always had were to try and always stand alongside someone, where you're both looking at the problem rather than be looking opposite each other with a problem in the middle of you. So try and get alongside someone.

Cath:

We've got different views at the moment about how we fix this problem, but we both want to fix it, so we've got that in common.

Cath:

And now let's see, because maybe there's some elements of both of what we think and maybe there's some elements from outside as well. So there is something about kind of trying to approach things a bit more collaboratively and actually trying to understand the other perspective that again was a huge tool of negotiation was to really I don't have to agree with your view, but the more I understand it, the more I understand where you're coming from, the more you feel heard and valued and the more I actually might start to see some connections between some element of your thoughts and some element of what I want to do. So that kind of let's try and get into more collaborative position whilst having different views. Let's kind of admit, let's sort of agree that actually this is a good meeting if we're bringing different viewpoints as well, and let's really try and think about how we can understand each other's perspective more. Then that, I think, gets us into a place of healthy challenge.

Colin:

Yeah, I agree. I mean, all the best relationships, all the best teams have a little bit of friction. I think there's this sense sometimes, Cath, that we want to work in this you know peaceful world where everybody's friends and everybody gets along. That's simply just not possible, neither is it kind of productive. I think that, you know, if people really care, if they've really got that sense of engagement, that sense of connection to a vision or a purpose, then you need to create this respectful tension in order to get there. And that will require honesty and that will require courage.

Colin:

And the goal is not to, you know, kind of create the environment where someone's right and someone's wrong. It's to actually come together openly discuss, as you said, openly discuss and challenge each other and find the right way for this team at that moment in time. And it's not about kind of someone being able to wave a flag or lift a trophy and go this, I'm right. It really is about, you know, kind of working together, you know, with a little bit of friction, to challenge each other to get to the point where we agree. You know, and anyone in a long-term relationship will know, it's not all roses, you know, if we look at our personal lives. We actually, you know, we worked through those tensions, we worked through that fiction because fundamentally we're connected to each other. We want something in our lives and work is no different and you know, it requires self-awareness. No-transcript. The private sector cultures were combating, but they, they just knew, we just knew when to kind of rub against each other a little bit to get the best outcome.

Cath:

Yeah, it comes back to the sort of deeper underpinnings of the culture as well. So the way we manage disagreement it depends on sort of where we've the norms and the kind of level of trust. And I mean, obviously, in sport that was a space where we were really open to challenge because it was always about making the boat go faster. It was always about performance. So if you really disagreed with me or coaches or other experts in that area, it could be quite harsh at times, but I always knew they're trying to make us go faster at the Olympics. So they might not have said it even in the nicest of ways compared to actually the language we probably use in the office, but I know underlying it is the belief that they think that could make us go faster. So I'm going to listen, I'm going to see, okay, how can we find a way through here? And then, yes, when I joined the civil service, none of that was happening. People were simmering away with different thoughts and frustrations and never voicing them. So got all this sort of silent aggression, which is not healthy conflict Right.

Cath:

It's quite a broad topic, that one, but let's keep going because I think we'll come back to some of that theme potentially in other spaces as well. So the next question is if we hire the right people, won't that automatically lead to a great culture? So tell me where this question is coming from. This is one that came to you, isn't it?

Colin:

It did. It came from a client who's going through a period of change right now and we've been working on culture for a while. They've seen some really great results and really starting to wonder well, you know, when I bring all of these people on board, won't the culture just take care of itself? You know, if I'm going to take the time to really think about who I need, their values and these kinds of things, Well, doesn't the culture then? Just isn't it just great?

Colin:

And, of course, my answer to this well, of course it could be initially, but there's, you know, that's no guarantee that you'd be able to sustain it over a period of time, because something I say all the time you get the culture that you choose to build, it doesn't just build itself. Now, you can have a lot of like-minded people, you can have some good opposites in terms of personality, you can get some of that healthy friction, but actually to sustain any level of performance over a period of time and you know, talk a little bit about sports here as well you not only have to hire people who have values that you know, people who have values that you expect, but actually you need to create a sense of belonging. You need to define how you're going to do this thing called work. You have to agree how you're going to behave, how you're going to work together, how you're going to use technology, how you're going to make time for creativity. You're going to have to come up with a vision, because only when you actually take the time to do all of those things do people feel that sense of connection. They're what we call engaged.

Colin:

Otherwise, what will happen is, yes, it might be good and it will be good in periods, but you will never, ever sustain performance, because you get the culture you choose to build. And if you don't choose to build it, then what you're going to get is occasional performance. What you'll get is rare kind of performance and eventually you'll get no performance, because it will just stagnate because people are like well, what are we doing? Why are we doing? How are we doing? And without those foundations to build on, whilst you might have the right people, you don't have a culture that connects those people, keeps them together such that performance can be achieved.

Cath:

Yeah, I think actually the phrase right people kind of puts me off a bit, because who says who's right? There's this sort of feels, very judgmental feels. It's not going to help increasing the diversity of our organisation if we're going around sort of saying these are the right people. Yeah, I completely agree. It ignores that whole issue of the conditions, the environment, rather than just the individuals, and it reminds me of our conversation about the Met Police and the fruit bowl. What is it that's making the fruit go off? What are those conditions in which poor behaviour is being tolerated? That's a really kind of key area, isn't it? That means, as you say, it's what we're living, it's what we're enabling, and then what people learn feels like, oh, that's right around here. So, yeah, the whole phrasing of that question also just feels like it needs reframing a bit and we need to always be thinking about the responsibility we have for the environment.

Colin:

Yeah, sorry to jump in there. You're right with regards to the right people, I think in their we understand what our values are. We understand the kind of personalities that we need. You know I've mentioned before your skills get you the job, but it's your personalities and values, sorry, your skills get you an interview, but it's your personality and your values that get you the job. So, having gone through that process, I think the inference was we've really thought about who we need and, you know, taking into consideration diversity.

Colin:

Right yeah, but won't it just take care of itself If we've done all of that work up front, doesn't it just happen? And then you've got that other question of oh well, do we wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait until we've got all of the people on board? And, of course, same thing, you get the culture you choose to build. So if you're waiting, waiting, waiting, you haven't done any building work, then it's just going to stagnate.

Cath:

Yeah, and I guess it's not just about inputs, is it? It's not just about the diversity coming in or the people coming in, it's all that you know. That's that separation between diversity and inclusion. It's not just who's in the room, it's whether they feel able to speak up, whether they feel they can influence and what that feels like.

Colin:

So, and that's, of course, harder to measure, because the inputs are easier to measure and that you know. That's another reason why, then, I think, we put less, less emphasis on it sometimes. Okay, next question how do you ensure that, while fixing toxicity, instilling and upholding values, you are at the same time doing things that drive or liberate performance?

Cath:

that's quite the meaty question, that one yeah, it is huge and uh, yeah, this came from someone who's who's worked in a, a large global organization and you know, you can, you can hear that tension, that dilemma of right. I I want to make sure that, you know, we're kind of really upholding values and we're caring for people and people feel psychologically safe, but we've got to hit the kbis. We've people feel psychologically safe, but we've got to hit the KPIs. We've got to hit these and in fact, we need to increase productivity because productivity is poor. I mean, universally productivity is poor. And then in the big global corporation, how do we kind of drive that? And so there are lots of things underpinning this, I think, in terms of the layers at which this question works. I think one of them is what is the interplay between performance and culture and how are we seeing that? Are we seeing them actually quite separate things or do we realize they really should be enmeshed?

Cath:

I was actually in a conversation today with someone where they were talking about the values being around. Let's do the right thing, and somebody asked the chief executive of this organization today well, is there a difference between doing the right thing? And somebody asked the chief executive of this organisation today. Well, is there a difference between doing the right thing commercially and doing the right thing culturally? And he said, no, I don't see there's a difference at all because for the long term, doing the right thing culturally is always going to be best for us commercially. So that's coming at it sort of from a belief that we don't need to compromise in any way on culture and that we need that in order to deliver over the longer term, and that then sort of steadies your thinking about things.

Cath:

I think the other sort of piece around this question is this you know this understandable need that we've got to constantly drive performance. Yeah, we want to expand our organization, we want to hit higher growth targets, maybe costs are going up in the supply chains, et cetera, and that therefore we have to drive it. And that I mean I get it, and it's the dominant sort of feeling that I see in most organizations. But it fundamentally comes from a space that dates back to this sort of 80s Wall Street piece that we're sort of you know we've got a whip and we are, you know that whole concept of driving like we drive cattle. Yeah, I'm not sure we should be driving people. That word drive is used a lot and I even sometimes find myself saying it and thinking, oh, I'm getting sucked into this.

Cath:

Actually, people need conditions to do their best performance. They need intrinsic motivations. So their work needs to call to a sense of purpose, that they know themselves, that they're growing through it, that they feel they belong, they're part of something, that they have that sort of shared long-term vision. And then actually allowing people to organize themselves as much as possible is the real gem to productivity and performance and good growth. And here I come back to that.

Cath:

You know classic work from Frederick Lallou, the reinventing organizations, that the future organizations. If we keep improving, you know the way an organization is organized, we move from one that's, you know, completely dictated in the old days to one that's sort of target driven. Then we move to a stage of self-organization where people will do good work if they know it's work that matters and they're able to do it and they're supported and challenged and they've got the conditions to do it. I mean that's a huge culture change for some organizations to get there, because that involves trusting people to a huge degree. But really that's where we need to have a clearer vision that we're aiming in that direction, so that we're not just driving this quarter's performance. We are all the time thinking about how do we create those conditions for people themselves where they're going to want to give their best performance. So that's where I've got to with it, but it's sparking a lot of thoughts. Where are you at?

Colin:

Yeah, and I completely agree with all of that, Cath, and you know when I was preparing for this question, it's a really interesting one because I think a lot of organizations have this dilemma. I think a lot of them and I've talked in the past about tick box culture. They've got all of the kind of conditions in place, but when push comes to shove and they have a target to hit, which is the most important thing and the organizations that make culture the most important thing will always always hit their targets. The people that make targets the most important thing may hit their target, but they will do it to the detriment of culture. And every piece of research and I wrote about this in Culture Fix and I've written about it in Detox your Culture as well will demonstrate that if you put time, thought and effort into continually evolving your culture and doing small things I call them micro-experiences every day that really contribute to people's life at work, then they'll pay you back with performance because they'll feel that sense of intrinsic motivation.

Colin:

And as an employee, I've been there myself where I see that the leadership team are doing the right things, even if there's pockets of kind of stuff that isn't working. I can see where we're going and I can connect my values to the values of the organization. We are on the right track. We are doing the right things. We've got to stay the course. We've got to stay the course.

Colin:

When you kind of really go after the target and then undermine the culture, you kind of lose that sense of, you know, connection, lose that sense of belonging, and all of a sudden you're going home and going.

Colin:

Well, you know why am I bothering here? I thought we were doing this. And then when you've got people who are driving this and it's always evident towards the end of a financial year for any corporate organization when they pull funding on culture what you're doing there is killing the hope that people had that you had a commitment to make things better, and that then affects their intrinsic motivation and we're like well, what are we doing here? And if you feel as an organization, you start from scratch every year with culture and you're focusing on results, then you'll eventually end up losing the people that you need to sustain performance over a period of time. Your culture will never get to where it needs to be, you'll fail to attract younger talent who want to contribute and, consequently, performance will never, ever be where it needs to be and that will lead to removal of the leadership team.

Cath:

That's a big one, isn't it? And we're starting to edge into this whole productivity space, which I think we'll probably have to look at at some point as well. Around you know this sort of conundrum that every organisation wants to solve and has failed, so clearly we're not going about it the right way.

Colin:

Yeah, and that leads into another question that we had, Cath, then, because you mentioned about productivity is so can toxic organizations perform well? So if you've got this inherently toxic culture and and and you know I haven't haven't I'm going to delicately plug my upcoming book here so I've written about toxic cultures out in the at the end of august and there's kind of three levels. You have this consistently combatant culture. Combatant culture is where there's friction. There's lots of friction, there's lots of poor behavior. We've all seen this and we're kind of like there's high stress, there's high anxiety, there's a lack of humility, there's people wearing the hours that they work as a badge of honor, there's a lot of profanity, like that's a good thing to do. There's lots of bias, conscious and unconscious. And then you move to another level when that's sustained over a period of time, we move to this corrosive culture where we what we start to see is bullying, harassment, shouting, unethical behavior. We, we kind of take that combat and culture to the next level, where it's corrosive not only to uh, to the people around us, but as to individuals. We really start to feel it and then we get to the point where it's harmful. That's the next level of toxicity physical assault, emotional cruelty, verbal abuse, threats, ultimatums, fraud, these kinds of things.

Colin:

And so what was interesting to me when I was researching the book is actually there are some organizations that seem to live in there permanently, and all right, let's take Twitter as an example. So Twitter is a great example. Sorry, x, still Twitter, don't even X. What you've got there is a very, very direct owner of the business. I'll let me I'm being kind here by saying direct, right, he's got some very challenging views. You know, when you get a job at X, what you're walking into. You know, and what you're going to get is a consistently combatant culture at the whim of the owner of the business. It might change day to day. You literally have no idea, and that can move into a toxic culture. Can you perform in there? Yes, you can. Will it be destructive? Absolutely it will be destructive. So I think it really falls to the definition of well. What do we mean by perform well? Can we achieve a result? Yes, will it be to the detriment of humans? Very probably.

Cath:

Yeah, I love that last sentence. I'm completely with you on that. What do we mean by perform well? I mean you know there are sweatshops in other parts of the world who are churning out stuff that are probably hitting some great results for someone, but I mean that's not going to fit definition of what performance looks like and you know it's. It's very. It's always short term, I think, because the costs are so high and you know there will be things that will come back and haunt you at some point and reputationally will, will damage you, and so, yeah, for me I rarely give a yes, no answer. But frankly, can a toxic organization perform well? I want to give a clear no to that. Not in any sense if we have any kind of yeah sense of values right.

Cath:

Next one this is quite interesting one because it creeps up a lot around the culture space, doesn't it? Will changing the operating model of a company automatically change its culture? So it's like, oh, I'm a bit uncomfortable about culture. How about if we do something with the operating model where it's on a diagram, on a piece of paper? Will that work, colin?

Colin:

Will it work? Well, kind of Again, to stay in a way that's very political answer well, kind of. So the operating model is the bit that kind of sits below the strategy and the goals. The operating model is how do we structure our business in order to best achieve the goals that we have, and so it's often a crucial part of corporate organizations, of government definitely government organizations who like to know the bands that they sit in. Here's the operating model, here's who's in which role and here are their responsibilities.

Colin:

But that does not create culture in and of itself. Remember, you get the culture that you choose to build, and I think the phrase that people will hear more often when people change an operating model is deck chairs on the Titanic. Oh, it's like shuffling deck chairs around on the Titanic. This is exactly what it is, and what they'll do is they'll move a few people to different roles. They'll move the really poorly performing person, make them head of special projects and hope that they leave. But that doesn't actually change the culture of an organization.

Colin:

So often and, Cath, we've covered a lot of these and in fact, chelsea Football Club, as we're recording this, they've just agreed to part with their manager, mauricio Pochettino. They're looking for a younger manager. He's 52. He's younger than me. I looked at that like a younger manager. How old do you need to be Like 15 to manage a football club these days? But for me it was a clear sense that they haven't really thought too much about the culture of the club.

Colin:

Now, the culture is something that's sustained over time and actually what you need is to stick with the operating model that you've got and then allow the manager, working with the sporting director, to really build the culture over a period of nine to 18 months. Richo Pochettino had started to do that. Chelsea had ended the season with some good results, he was starting to really build a sense of unity with younger players, and then he's gone and now they're saying, oh, we're going for a younger manager. It's like, well, you're just changing the operating model a little bit and what you've done is undermine the culture. You've set it back six to nine months and listen, then bringing in a new person might actually work. But what they've done is damaged the short-term culture and obviously we don't know everything that's going on behind the scenes, but that's certainly what it looks like to me is that what they've done is split the operating model created confusion. So no, changing the operating model doesn't change the culture. You still get the culture you choose to build, which happens once the operating model is confirmed.

Cath:

I think you want to be thinking about both of these, you know so that they're in lockstep, and I think that's you know. If that's the in lockstep, and I think that's you know that's the sort of the consulting, strategic consultancy's line, the McKinsey line, isn't it that we need greater alignment between the business model and the culture and therefore we've got to be constantly designing that operating model to align with the culture we want. We need clarity about the culture we want rather than somehow it's fixing an issue over there. You know both need to be sort of developing and kind of interlink much more and I think the question also reflects that. Traditionally we've often seen them a bit separate. You know, of course that doesn't really make sense Practically. They need to be. You know the culture is how you're going to bring that operating model to life. So that alignment is, you know, constantly realigning. Achieving greater alignment is is then your, you know, the leadership's role over the next period.

Colin:

So, yeah, definitely doesn't get you off the culture hook by tweaking that model yeah, and as much time should be spent on cultural design and implementation as is spent on organizational design and implementation, and that's very often.

Cath:

Oh, yes, yes, and really again interlocked. So you know, can you do one without the other?

Colin:

Okay, last question, yeah.

Cath:

Good, right We've got yeah.

Colin:

So over to you, kev. What happens to culture whilst you're waiting for a new CEO to start?

Cath:

Well, first of all, culture keeps going. Sometimes I find this because I think we live in a finite world of tasks and we're fixing this, We've got a new project, project ends. People see culture like that and it's almost like, oh well, I wonder what will happen. And the culture is going to stop until the new CEO comes in. No, I mean all the time. People will keep coming and they'll keep living that culture.

Cath:

Now, of course it's going to depend on the culture that's been set. I mean, if they've left because they've set up a toxic culture, then the whole place might crater at that point. But actually, if they've created really good values, foundation for the culture and everybody has great clarity about the norms of behavior, then those will carry on. Now, of course, there's role modeling, there's setting the tone that comes from the top. But again, it shouldn't be that we're sort of waiting necessarily to.

Cath:

If they're not here or I don't know what to do, I've got to wait for the next one. No, I'm going to carry on with what's been working till now, but I guess it's best. One of the best ways of telling whether how good a ceo has been is what happens when they leave, and it's a little bit like clock who who's famous for saying um, actually, don't judge me on sort of what I do when I arrive or what I do here. Judge me on how you feel about me when I leave. And of course, we've just seen this great outpouring of love and warmth, not just in Liverpool, across the country, not in this household.

Colin:

We have a just, by the way, klopp, I don't know that name, I don't recognise it.

Cath:

Oh yeah, come on, colin, it goes like even my Arsenal supporting husband.

Colin:

He needs to have a word with himself.

Cath:

You know, will almost shed a tear for him leaving and I'll miss his press conferences for sure. So I think that's you know, it's going to depend on your CEO and in a way that's going to really tell you what the legacy is. What do you think?

Colin:

Yeah, I think if you're an incoming CEO and work has stopped on culture, it's going to really question the leadership team, and I'm going to be looking at my leadership team going wait, you've stopped working on culture, you're not doing anything. Where's your kind of list of events? What are you doing to actually maintain it? A great CEO will take probably between three to six months just to have a look at what's going on around them before they decide to put the kind of print on the culture. I always think it's a sign of a combatant CEO wants to come in and change everything immediately, unless it's a toxic culture, in which case usually someone's been parachuted in and that's the expectation. They really have to start working on it straight away.

Colin:

But you can't afford to tread water. You can't afford just to wait and see what the new CEO will bring. Any CEO worth their salt will come in and they'll say tell me what we're doing to maintain the culture in line with the values that we've got. What's our program of events? What's your commitment as a leadership team? And then how can I add to that, whilst I take the time to assess the health of the organization? And so for me, what happens for a culture. Exactly what you said, Cath. You carry on working on it, you never stop. You commit to it full time and then you wait and see what the CEO wants to tweak and then you work with them on that.

Cath:

Sounds good. We have run through quite a few topics there, as always, took quite a few different perspectives that help us think in different ways around different scenarios. I think that come up. So, yeah, brilliant. Keep going with sending us your questions. You can often find us on LinkedIn where we're posting about the podcast, or send them out to insideoutculture at gmailcom. Fantastic.

Colin:

Great session.

Cath:

Thanks, Cath, good to chat, bye. Thanks for listening to today's Inside.

Colin:

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Cath Bishop

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Colin D Ellis

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