Inside Out Culture
Cath Bishop and Colin Ellis - two people who have been at the heart of workplace culture for over 3 decades host a regular podcast that offers an insider’s view on culture and provides tangible actions that you can take on the outside.
As best-selling authors and consultants who work with cultures around the world, they not only talk about what's happening in the world of work right now, but also provide evidence and commentary to help you change the way you do things too.
From kindness to toxicity, from values to high-performance, Cath and Colin discuss a breadth of topics relevant to the way work gets done. Both are keen to help leaders, managers and colleagues gain competence and confidence to contribute more positively and proactively to their workplace environments.
Please do send in your questions for Cath and Colin to answer. You can email them at insideoutculture@gmail.com or message them on LinkedIn.
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Inside Out Culture
Your Culture Questions Answered - Winning, Being Values-led, Scaling Culture and more!
On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.
Specifically we look at:
- How do I know when I need to change my culture?
- How can I help me and my team to reflect and take a step back when everyone is flat out?
- Is it possible to be both values-led and high performing at the same time?
- How important it is to do whatever it takes to win.... How do I manage this?
- How should you spend your culture budget?
- Is there a tipping point when it comes to moving from a start-up culture to something more scalable?
Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
Instagram: @insideoutculture
Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com
Receive the Culture Leaders Action Sheet: bit.ly/iocpmail
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside.
Cath:I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.
Colin:We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think. Welcome to another episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast, and today we're answering questions, and we're doing it in the same country. I mean, we're not far away, Cath, I think you're in North London. I'm near St Pancras, king's Cross Station. I'm heading out to Cambridge today. You're all stomping ground.
Colin:We're just miles away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, hoping to get in the same room soon, but it's progress to be in the same city. Yes, it is.
Colin:And it's a beautiful sunny day, which I always love saying about England because it happens like about 10 times a year. Isn't it beautiful? Yeah, Isn't it lovely? All right. So questions today. What have we got, Cath?
Colin:Yeah. So another Culture Questions episode and, as ever, quite a set of challenging questions and as much as we will give our thoughts and reflections and hints and tips as always it we will give our thoughts and reflections and hints and tips. As always, it's often about rethinking the question, challenging understanding the framing of the question. Because culture is so broad, we often try and narrow it down to a yes, no, right, wrong, what do I do? And so often, you know, I think our thought process is about taking a step back. Think about actually what's behind the question and who else do you need to talk to about it. So, as always, we're trying to give you both perspective, as well as some hints and tips and answers. So the first one is how do I know when I need to change my culture?
Colin:So how do I know when I need to change it? I think the first point to make is culture's evolutionary. I think if you get to the point where you actually physically need to change it, I think the first point to make is culture's evolutionary. I think if you get to the point where you actually physically need to change it, you probably waited a little bit too long, which probably isn't a helpful answer. So you're saying it's too late, but culture is evolutionary. It's one of the reasons often when I hear culture change project almost like it's got a defined start and a defined end. Culture it's not like that, it's evolutionary, it's ongoing, it's always there. But I understand the intent of the question is the point of okay, well, what's the point in time where I need to maybe invest time or money in culture? My answer here would be as soon as performance or behavioral standards slip, that's when you really need to think about an investment in culture. And I know when I think back to my very, very early days when I was a project manager for the Mirror Group newspapers, way back when, you know, we had a and this was for year 2000 projects. We had a high performance standard because we had so many projects to do in such a short space of time, and if we felt there was a week where we missed a milestone or we missed a deadline, then we would almost have like an intervention the following week to say okay, well, you know, what didn't we do? Why did we allow that to slip? You know? How do we maintain that velocity? You know?
Colin:For me, I think, if you see the behaviors of individuals starting to slip, then what you need to do in an ideal world, what you've done is you've you know, and it's something I've been doing in Cambridge over the next few days is getting the team to agree the base culture, the foundational culture.
Colin:It doesn't take two days to do, but then you've got a standard that everybody can adhere to, and then, as soon as you start moving away from that standard, that's the time when you need to start investing in culture. I think as well, if you're a leader and performance is nowhere near where it needs to be. I spoke to somebody last week who said oh, since we moved to hybrid working, as an office worker, since we moved to hybrid working, we're not as productive as we used to be, you know? And I said well, have you actually redefined your culture for the hybrid world? And, of course, the answer was no, we haven't. We haven't done any of that work. So I think, as soon as your behavioural standards or performance standards slip, that's when you actually need to spend time and money redefining the culture.
Colin:Yeah, I mean I really want to reinforce that initial part, that culture is always evolving. So it's about thinking, not there's certain points to invest in it and not, but the ideal is that we are constantly investing in it, constantly aware of it, noticing it, thinking, yeah, which aspects are being sort of brought out most, which aspects are being a bit neglected? So it's a sort of constant engagement with culture. But I think, yeah, I would say, sometimes when your gut is telling you something or is uncomfortable in the way that people have behaved, or you see things that make you think, oh, I didn't know that was okay to do round here. Since when has that been okay?
Colin:Then I think those are sort of real little alarm bells to think, yes, okay, I need to understand. Sort of real little alarm bells to think, yes, okay, I need to understand first of all, rather than jump in and fix them. What is it that means the culture is being pushed in that direction? What are the things that mean I'm suddenly seeing behaviors that I didn't think were okay now becoming more normalized. So understanding what's changed and what might be driving some of those changes. So it's always getting that kind of deeper understanding of what's driving what you're seeing, but your gut is often a really good feel when you go home. At the end of the day, something happened that just still sticks with you and you feel uncomfortable about. That's a sign that there's probably something that really needs addressing.
Colin:Yeah, and I want to acknowledge this is something that a lot of leaders in a lot of different organisations are grappling with. So I've been working with the University of Georgia, a team at the University of Georgia researchers, and we're at the point where we're about to implement a tool to help people assess where their culture is right now. You know, one of the things that I've talked about is I really want to, I really want to help people to understand where they're at at any point in time so that they can do things to help themselves. So once that tool is available, we'll share it via the podcast, so at least it gives leaders that insight. Okay, next question, Cath how can I help me and my team to reflect and take a step back when everyone is flat out and has back-to-back diaries, back-to-back, and it's not acceptable to do the work expected of us? That's a tough one, Cath.
Colin:That's a tough one. It's a very current, topical. It's the sort of thing I've heard from more than one person as well, and we get trapped into these cycles. So, first of all, take a step back yourself, and well done for highlighting that something's necessary here that time to reflect. The danger is that we've got a sort of short-term way of working here that is going to damage us in the longer term. So if we keep going like this, we'll get less done. If we don't take time to reflect, we won't notice the things we could do better or how to support each other, challenge each other, innovate, evolve. So I think you need to role model it first of all, and well done for recognizing it. So show how it can be done. I don't think it's about masses of time. It's often the quality of time.
Colin:Sometimes, if you're having a team meeting actually starting off, before you dive into the agenda, start off with a question that is a reflective question what's the thing you've learned in the last week? What's something that you've noticed from the clients we're working with? What trends are you seeing? What are you feeling about what's working well in the team? So, adding some reflection questions into existing meetings, not making it. An additional meeting, I think is important. And then getting clearer on priorities is the thing that will help with this, so that we're spending time on the stuff that matters. And if we do say we need a bit more time to reflect then what's coming out of the diary. We're very good at really being clear about what's coming in and then if something comes in, something's got to come out. So, clearer priorities, clearer priorities. Could you do something another way? Are you all needed in the same meeting? Those sorts of questions? But actually put the reflection time in. You know, put it in first, don't think of it as something extra to go in at the end. Actually, you need this to do your best work, to come to the work with a mindset that is fully thinking rather than reactive.
Colin:So again, a mindful moment in between those back-to-back meetings. If you're online, make sure you have ideally five minutes, but even if it's one minute, before you click on that next Zoom link or Teams link, actually step away from the computer, look out the window. Just let your mind be free, let it wander. Just kind of notice in your body a little bit where there's tension, try and sort of ground yourself through your feet. Just take a moment to switch off, before you then sit down and carry on. So movement, physical movement, is something that's really important as well to help our mind to move. So those are my thoughts. What do you think, colin?
Colin:Yeah, I think that's great. I love the mindful moment, catherine, that's really great advice If you find yourself on endless video calls. So Zoom fatigue is a real thing. I spoke to the lead researcher on this at Stanford University a couple of years ago, and there are so many issues with sat in front of a laptop, sat staring at a camera, not least how you think of yourself when you've got a little picture of yourself in the corner. I think my advice here would be just to echo what you said is plan it in.
Colin:We don't prioritize those moments of reflection, and yet they're so, so important for us to actually think on well, what did we learn? What did we do? What worked well, what didn't work well? Also, I think as as well, when we have that time for reflection, it opened. It opens up these little trains of thought that gives rise to creativity.
Colin:Um, and I I think we're there's this sense that we have to be always on all of the time, and if you're one of those people that's got back-to-backs, which I think is just a an insidious practice that organizations have found themselves in, is, look to make your meetings 20 minutes long instead of 30 minutes, 40 minutes long instead of 60 minutes. If you put in 60 minutes you'll fill it, but also if you make it 40 minutes you can keep it really tight. And then what you find is you end up with 15, 20 minutes in between meetings to have those moments of reflection, to have those mindful moments, to kind of, you know, ground in and breathe and exercises. Anything that you can do to prioritize your productive time, I think, is a great thing to do.
Colin:And when you have those gaps whether it's five minutes or 20 minutes don't leap into the inbox, don't just look at your phone. Yeah, use those productively, and that might be to have a break, or it might be to work on a piece of work. I think part of it is very poor email practice that we sort of get sucked into or we've got lots of windows open or we jump back into LinkedIn. So there's something about also just being quite conscious of not letting those moments leak in, because we can feel we're back to back and really busy. But actually we've also looked at our inbox 20 times in the day and we probably only needed to look at it five. You know we've linked it. We've looked at LinkedIn 20 times and we only really needed to look at it twice. So I think there are some things there that we're not always good at being quite honest about and they really do affect our productivity. So tightening up some of that as well, great.
Colin:Okay, now we've got a couple of questions that we're going to bring us back to a couple of things we've talked about around high performance cultures, around the role of values. So let's look at the first one and then some of that will probably also help us with the second one. The first one is simply is it possible to be both values led and high performing at the same time?
Colin:Now I'm even interested why someone thinks this is a question, but anyway, yeah, but that's fascinating because this is and I think we both see this, Cath. We've talked offline about some of the challenges, issues, opportunities that our clients face, and one of them is this either or Are we either real, do we have really strong values and stick to those, or are we really high performance? It's like, well, actually, you're both. You know, if you want to create this really fabulous, vibrant culture, you're both. You know.
Colin:The research says is when you have a really strong set of defined values, employees are 115% more engaged than if you don't. So values are principles or standards of behavior. They're almost ideals that you strive to fulfill. And then those values they inform the day-to-day cultural norms, and it's the cultural norms that make you high performing. You know, yeah. So yeah, I mean the short answer is yes, that you know this is what every organization should be striving for is what are our values? And they're unique to your organization, and it's a statement, it's not a word. But then what are the norms that you have in support of those values that really drive you to success, whatever success means for you?
Colin:Because if you do it in line with the values, not only have you got really high engagement from people. So that means that they're disciplined, they're focused, they have structure, they're interested in the learning you get from culture. But also you've got really high, emotionally intelligent people who feel that they can be the best of themselves. They feel that they can be honest. Vulnerability, humility, empathy these aren't seen as a weakness, they're seen as a superpower.
Colin:To really charge our culture and that's the sweet spot for organizations is when you've got highly emotionally intelligent people who are really engaged in what they're doing, then they're led by the values but they help each other to perform at the highest level, consistently. And when you look at some of those long-term, high-performing teams, yes, usually there's a figurehead of that team, and we've talked in the past of people like Pep Guardiola at Manchester City, someone who really understands culture. But actually the players or the employees really demand it of each other. And so if you veer away from the values, people pull you back to it and say, well, hang on a minute. Yes, we're high performing, but we're not doing it in a way that supports the kind of team that we want to be and we've created this real combatant culture. So the short answer is yes, it is possible and that should be the goal of every organization.
Colin:Yeah, it's possible. It's essential in our view, isn't it? Sustainably high performing and to be ethically high performing. So I think one of the things, the danger, if we go off this high performance route without the values, is we start cutting some corners in some really dodgy ways that often will come back to haunt us within that space around ethics and integrity. So that's why it's so important to be values, uh, led and underpinned. And I think in sport we see that quite clearly. Whether it's the you know, the dominance of the all blacks team that's been written about, uh, whether it's, uh, yeah, you know, the lionesses that I've spoken about and the serena bigman, uh, a lot and you know, a lot of the olympic teams this summer will have done work that will underpin the high performance they are striving for constantly with values, in order to ensure that they can get the most out of themselves, they can address issues, they can raise them, they can give really kind of clear, candid feedback and make sure that you don't cross that ethical line. You know it's really important. So, yes, it is absolutely.
Colin:And to kind of build onto that then with another question in this same space um, my company says that the process matters and that values matter, but then talks about winning a lot, how important it is to do whatever it takes to win. So how do I kind of manage these two things that seem to cancel each other out and this is where I see sort of companies do get in a bit of a muddle almost about understanding what it means to focus on the performance process, not just the results, because they're so often. You know, the language revolves around results all the time and there's a sense that talking about winning, being competitive in itself drives performance, which you know I really unpick Part of my book is unpicking this to think that there's a danger that some of that can drive actual, you know, almost self-sabotage. You know competition instead of collaboration, and so, yeah, I mean my sort of first thoughts are to start getting a bit more clarification about what is it we're trying to win, because I find it's used very loosely in organizations as if we talk about winning then we'll have high performance, and that's really quite a sort of simplistic misunderstanding of what motivates people to do their best work.
Colin:So start to kind of just go what is it we're trying to win and make sure that when we have that language and that focus, it's on something external. So we are trying to compete against others in the market. Perhaps we are trying to do something that improves our market share, for example. Not we in marketing are trying to win against those people in the sales department in hitting our targets. That's when it gets really dangerous. So for me there's something about clarifying and calling out that language a little bit to make sure that this winning stuff doesn't seep into actually creating quite a toxic culture. But for me this also shows the leadership is potentially in a place where it doesn't quite understand yet hasn't really thought through at a deeper level. Some of these good language I hear, process matters, values matter, but but aren't living it.
Colin:So leadership development, I think, is probably also crucial here yeah, I think and I think you've said in your, your book as well, Cath, the long way.
Colin:Now if you haven't got the long win, you should definitely grab a copy that the more importance you place on winning, the more debilitating losing comes. And I think that's a really good point because, certainly in my experience, when it's win, win, win, win, win, when you don't win, either it really drains the motivation, it really drains the morale of everybody, or else we amp up and you mentioned that toxicity, we amp up the language so it becomes really combative and you start demanding more of people, and then it undermines the kind of collaborative nature of the way that we work in order to achieve those results. And so I think everything that you said there is absolutely spot on. But I do want to say that winning, in whatever concept, whatever it means for you, is important. But there's a right way to win. Um and you know, you know, interestingly, um, as we record this, uh, england have just performed really poorly at the european championships, which, of course, is the only thing that everybody wants to talk about in england.
Colin:It might not be the case by the time this comes out.
Colin:Obviously they might have redeemed themselves, yes, well yeah, yeah, hopefully they, yeah, hopefully they've won it. But you know, we've talked about the fact, talked about the fact that the players care too much, and somebody said to me is how is it possible to care too much? I was like, well, yeah, it is because what you can do there, what you, what you do, is you really care about the result to the point where you stop taking risks and you kind of lose that sense of well, how do we work together to achieve this? And you place all the emphasis on yourself performing at the highest level and it undermines, kind of the collaborative nature of teams. So, yes, it's important to keep, you know, whatever winning means for you, it's important to keep that front and center, but recognize that the only way to achieve that goal is by working together in line with a set of values, the standards as we just talked about, because you know it's only when we work together that we can achieve those goals, particularly in a team environment, obviously.
Colin:One of the concepts missing for me from sort of that question and the traps we get into culture and organisations is the lack of learning here. So it's the learning piece that, over time, is going to help us to win. And that brings us back to the process, though. Are we improving every day? If we can really focus on that, the results take care of themselves, we leap ahead, and so I think for me, you know, really bringing managers, leaders, colleagues back into our team meetings. What are we learning this week? What are we going to do better than we did last week? Keep that language going. That's where sport has gone now. In trying to win, it focuses much more on learning, and that, again, that's Southgate's response. It's the players, isn't it? What are we going to learn from this game? Not just thinking about the results, but what actually is happening, what are the things we're?
Colin:going to improve and that creates that momentum that's going to give you the best chance of winning over time, given there are lots of uncontrollables. That's a good segue to the next question then, Cath. So if you have a budget for culture, what's best to spend the money on, away days training? What would our recommendation be? Away days training, you know what would our recommendation be?
Colin:So it's a really great question, and I hope that more organizations are investing in culture. For me, it's about coming back to that point you talked about, where you've clarified what's important for your culture, what you want to become as a team, as an organization, and to then think, well, what's the gap, what do we need to develop in order to get there? And that's where you spend the money. So I don't think there's a right answer. I think any of these things development, time together, social time and away day all of those things can be useful. All those things can actually be a waste of time as well. So it's really about understanding where do we want to get to and what are the things that we still need to develop or to spend time working on that will help us get there and to really agree that as a team.
Colin:I think it's quite a hard thing for a leader to sort of absolutely decide by themselves, and it's a great opportunity to give others a voice who might also be quite creative, quite innovative about. Do you know what we could spend time developing, how we work by you know, doing doing this activity, or you know, and allowing somebody in the team as well to bring something of themselves to that. So, to really tap into the resource of the team that we're maybe not tapping into, who's got some skills that they could share a bit more, or a world that they're involved in through hobbies, sport, music, theater, whatever where we could actually dip into that and go do some improv comedy, or you know, because actually it connects to our team rather than oh, I've just seen it on a list of things advertising, let's go and do that. You want some kind of connection. If you're going to go and do a rowing corporate day which is something that I do every now and then, which is great fun you want it because it connects to the team in some way.
Colin:They live and work in Cambridge and see it all around them all the time, or actually there are people who have been rowing, or people have read the book Will it Make the Boat Go Faster? And they want to use this metaphor. So it needs to be meaningful, is my thought, and quite creative. It's an opportunity, isn't it? What do you think?
Colin:Yeah, creative. It needs to be something different. It's an opportunity for us to showcase our work here, Cath, because people who have budget for culture, they typically hire people like us to do something different. I'll be in Cambridge for the next two and a half days working with a team on doing that. I think the point that I want to make is that managers who recognize the importance of culture fight tooth and nail for money to do culture work. They recognize that some organizations you know I'd like to think this is changing still frown on, you know, people spending money on culture. So the manager that I'm working with over the next two and a half days, she had to fight tooth and nail to take her team off site for two days. Now I know the results that she'll get because, you know, I can point to it in my in my work. But we're going to do something different.
Colin:You know we've involved staff in that. What do you want to hear? What do you want to see? You know, yes, there's a structure. You see, you know, yes, there's a structure. You know a very defined way of doing things. But also there's 20%, where we give staff the opportunity to have a say on what they want to cover and of course, people love that. They're like, okay, well, we've never done anything like this before.
Colin:And I think if you want to, if you want to positively evolve your culture, what you can't afford to do is fall into the trap of doing the same things in the same way, like you've always done them. You know, during during COVID was a great example. So I was. I was flat out busy during that time of COVID because people wanted to redefine their cultures, because they were working differently, which was great. But I had one CEO said to me. He said, oh, we did these Friday drinks. He was like it was great for the first three or four months, but then people stopped attending.
Colin:I was like, yeah, cause it, because you just got a bit lazy. You just thought that everyone would come to the same thing that you do. I was like did you change it up? Did you have a speaker? Did you play games? What did you do? Did you use a different platform? He was like no, we just got people to come and sit with a glass of wine. I was like did you put them in Zoom rooms, different people, different times, like a speed dating? No, so I think you know you've got to really think how much money can I get? And then what's the best use of it? To inject energy, excitement, a sense of something different, so that people want to join in, they want to contribute and they want to be part of something different moving forward.
Colin:It's a lovely opportunity, isn't it, to actually give your people a voice in who you are and to see people beyond their email inboxes and zoom meetings. So yeah, good, it's a good question. Uh, so our last one is there a tipping point when it comes to moving from a startup culture to something more scalable?
Colin:so yes, it is. I'm doing a speech about this in Zurich next week actually. So I'm working with an organization who's just got to that magical 150. So anybody familiar with Dunbar's rule of 148 people? Yeah, so what Robin Dunbar said is, at 148 people, that's the bit where you lose the social connections that you had and the best startup companies. What they do is the owners of the startup and any kind of startup culture. What the ownership does is it retains a lot of the control because it recognizes there's a certain level of velocity that you need to maintain, particularly in order to get VC funding and all of these kinds of things, and at some point that velocity has to be. Other people have to be empowered to maintain that velocity. It can't all be on the founders, because what you don't want is the bottleneck got is a more of a corporate type structure.
Colin:Um, really, you want to be doing it much earlier than that. You know, as it's starting, I remember speaking to a startup founder in uh in sydney in australia and he had 12 direct reports. I said it's too many. I was like at that point, what you need to do is start to get that number down to about six so that you can, you know, kind of feasibly manage those people, but you need to empower them, and I feel that sometimes there's this sense of loss of control, but actually you maintain that sense of control if you're helping, coaching, supporting people, because then these people are employees are then managing and maintaining the business on your behalf. And so I suppose my answer here would be the sooner that you can start empowering others to live the values, maintain the velocity on your behalf, the better. But if you're looking for a number, I would say anything over 100 is really about the time that you need to start thinking about a different cultural setup to take the business to where you expect it to grow. What do you say, Cath?
Colin:Interesting, like I also see a tipping point that comes sort of at a kind of earlier point, in that there's something about some startups when you start with a group of eight or 10 people sometimes it's even like five or six and everyone knows what everyone is doing, up to about 12, maybe 15. But then as soon as you're into 2030, you can no longer have everyone knowing what everyone's doing and there's no sense it doesn't make sense for you to be spending time on that either. So I think also it depends on you know that there are quite a few different points, tipping points that come. But I think there's also one earlier where often it feels you know you've got like-minded founders, those early groups. There's huge cohesion, there's huge a sort of real sense of common mission in trying to get something off the ground, and so you're really united. And then, as you bring more people in, quite rightly, you bring in some more diversity. So then you've got more dissenting voices. And it's this thing about you can no longer rely on knowing what everyone's doing and as soon as you don't know that, you feel left out of something, particularly if you've come from a point where you were part of five or six, where you knew everything that was going on. Suddenly, you're one of the founders and something's happening that you don't know about. So I think there's a really interesting point there.
Colin:And at all the levels that level also, at the level you're talking about, 100, there can be an assumption that we sort of put in more processes and that we create hierarchy. And I think it's really important to take a step back at that moment and think about what are we trying to create? How do we want people to feel as a result of what we're going to do in developing the culture at this point, and to think much more about self-organization than imposed organization. So the, the sort of thinking behind the next level at which companies can progress to have really uh, you know, a culture where people are empowered, able to do really good work, is one where you actually start removing hierarchy, remove boundaries and you give people much more say in what they're involved in and what they need to know. And this self-organization principle that frederick lalu talks about in his um uh, what's it called? Developing organizations book, um, which we'll link to, is something that I think is underused at the moment and a really powerful tool that will start to see more in cultures, this piece around you, working out what you need to know and what you don't know, and then you feel much more comfortable going.
Colin:Yeah, I said I didn't need to know that, so I've got to let go of that when it niggles at me. So I would say bring in some self-organizing principles, start reading about what that means. That's a growing element of purpose-driven organizations who want to get to that next level of empowering the organization as it grows to do more because people want to work on good work. So you also get these kind of interesting dynamics in the companies that have really taken this to quite an advanced stage where people go I'm not going to work on that project because I know it's not going to work. So I'm going to put my time on this project and that's really valuable because often at the top you can't see that and you're so driven by this sort of sunk cost bias. We put money into this, so we're going to carry on.
Colin:Something we talked about in a previous conversation that some of these self-organizing principles really help us to kind of go do you know what that isn't working? Let's shut it down now rather than doing it because we said we'd do it and killing it and taking it to the bitter end and losing a whole lot of money and motivation of people in the same process. So my thought is to start really getting more self-organizing principles into your culture as you grow Fantastic.
Colin:Just a reminder to everybody. If you've got a question, we'd love to hear from you at insideoutculture at gmailcom. It can be absolutely anything. We don't mind at all, we'll go away and research it, but for now, another great session.
Colin:Thanks so much, Cath yeah, I'm just about to get figures going outside. I don't know if you can hear them, so it's perfect time to stop perfect time, all right, thanks, Cath see you soon bye thanks for listening to today's inside out culture podcast.
Colin:Please remember to like, subscribe and, of course, share with others who you think may be interested.
