Culture books we love

One of the things we love about our work is not only uncovering great books, papers and articles on culture, but also sharing them with others so that they can benefit from them too.

So, on this week’s episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast - ahead of the summer break in the northern hemisphere and the winter hibernation in the southern hemisphere! - we are sharing our favourite culture books with you!

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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

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Chapters

• 0:02 The Role of Books in Culture
• 9:23 Impactful Leadership Books
• 14:42 Building High Performance Team Culture
• 20:40 Navigating Culture and Leadership Books
• 31:08 Sharing Book Recommendations

Transcript

Colin: 0:02

Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis.

Cath: 0:12

And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.

Colin: 0:27

We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think.

Cath: 0:33

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast. It's something a little different. This week, we are going to talk about our favourite books that have influenced our thinking about culture. Both Colin and I are really keen readers and we're often discussing books and sending each other messages about various books, and it's a really key part of our work lives, our lives as writers as well, and so we thought, with summer holidays coming up, that we'd share a few of our recommendations, which might inspire you to read one of these or to go and find another one that you'd like to read to continue your thinking about culture. So, before we dive into the books, tell us a bit first of all, colin, about the role of reading and books in your life.

Colin: 1:14

Well, I've always been a reader. I always think these things start with your parents. Mom and dad were readers. They used to read me books as kids, something that we did with our kids to try and ignite that curiosity around reading.

Colin: 1:24

But but, working for myself, I realized that as a manager I had a set way of building teams, building cultures, and it really worked. But when I, when I started working myself, I realized that actually for me to be able to promote what I do and to help others, then there has to be some science behind it. I have to read what other people have written. I think if you want to write a book, you have have to read books to really. You know, sometimes you'll agree with things, sometimes you won't agree with things and usually that sparks an idea that then you can write about. And often the blogs that I write is based on something that I've read and I go I really agree with that or I really disagree with that. So for me, books play a big part in my life and, you know, at the end of all of my books I always credit, I always list all of the books that I've read, because I think, you know, I have to credit these people with. You know the ideas that they've generated. How about you, Cath?

Cath: 2:17

Yes, so huge connection as well. Lifelong really Grew up in a house with lots of books and I am a definite book addict. I should probably go to group where we discuss book addiction, because I buy far too many, and so they're literally piling up around my house, my workplace, my bed, everything, I think. Also, when I came into working in this area, a good sort of 10 years ago now, I've kept thinking I don't know if I'm qualified enough for this, and I think just the breadth of the area that it covers understanding human behavior, psychology, anthropology, neuroscience there's such a breadth that you constantly want to be understanding other influences to help us do work. That is quite holistic. You're working at lots of different levels.

Cath: 3:03

You might be thinking about mindsets and beliefs in a workplace, or you might be thinking about behaviors or relationships, and so then you find yourself going off into a corner of. I need to understand more about relationship theory. That comes from parenting even, and family therapy is where that thinking started. And then, of course, actually when I was an athlete, I'd read a lot about sports psychology. Else, actually, when I was an athlete, I'd read a lot about sports psychology, and so it is an endlessly fascinating area, and I guess I just feel that it's.

Cath: 3:29

I don't have to make myself read a book. I want to read because I feel it's so essential to almost making sense of life, personally and professionally as well. And yeah, when I wrote my book which took me many years I found in the course of that that I read books in a much deeper way, a different way. I was thinking not just sort of what are the ideas, but how has the author presented the ideas, how have they helped us to understand it and make it engaging? And so you're sort of reading on two levels then as well. So, yeah, lots of connection there.

Colin: 3:59

Before we dive in, there's a really interesting point. So when I finished the manuscript for my latest book, which is on toxic cultures, I deliberately didn't finalize it until I'd found there's a particular book that I wanted to read called toxic leaders, and I really wanted to read that book. Before I finalized my manuscript, I had this real desire. I was like I really want to understand the concepts in this book and make sure that you know, know kind of what I've written. And so I find myself on these little quests sometimes, Cath, to find these books. And particularly when people share books that they've read, that have inspired them, I always go okay, well, is this something that would benefit me in my work?

Cath: 4:39

Yeah, so what are you going to start us off with? What's your first book recommendation today? Well, I'm going to start us off with what's your first book recommendation today.

Colin: 4:45

Well, I'm going to start, as you mentioned, mindset in your opening. So that's where I'm going to start. Uh, Cath, uh, with a book called mindset by uh carol dr. Carol dwight, is it doctor? I'm not sure if she is a doctor but it's carol professor carol's like.

Colin: 4:59

So if you're listening, carol, because definitely she's listening to this. It's a book that I recommend all the time and there's a there's a quote really early on which kind of sums up you know, she gives a quote from this guy, alfred Bina, who's the inventor of IQ and he said not all people who start out the smartest end up the smartest. Really resonated with me straight away as someone who crashed out of school with next to no qualifications and she, she talked about this distinction between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And what I loved about the book and it's a quote I use all of the time, always with attribution is that she says in the book, you can always change how substantially intelligent you are, but it's a choice. It's a choice. And there's another quote I use about being ordinary. She says something in the book about. She said the scariest thought which I really anticipated I remember it's which I really entertained, was the thought of being ordinary. And there is for me.

Colin: 5:56

When I read the book I didn't just learn about how is mindset useful in the context of business, in the context of leadership, but also in parenting.

Colin: 6:10

When I read it the kids were relatively young, I think I read it about eight, nine years ago, something like 2015, 2016. And the kids were a lot younger than they are now like 10 and eight or something like that and it really gave me a sense of now, like 10 and eight or something like that, and it really gave me a sense of well, okay, well, how do we, how do we think about how we praise the kids, how we educate them, and I just think there's just so much that can be learned. She makes it one last, one, last quote from it. She makes the point that that babies know what no one she said in the book. No one laughs at babies and says aren't they dumb? Because they can't talk. They just haven't learned it yet. And yet, when we get older, we make these judgments on people who've never actually had the time to learn some of those skills. So, yes, mindset is my first choice.

Cath: 6:59

And I think that book has been so huge it spawned a whole industry really. Carol Dweck was an educational psychologist, so it actually started off from the point of view of her trying to think how do we help children to learn? And it's not just a fixed IQ. Actually, the environment they're in has an enormous impact. The way they think about learning has an enormous impact, and so it's been huge because her work.

Cath: 7:23

Growth Mindset is talked about in sports worlds, it's talked about in businesses and I often hear leaders and HR directors saying we need a growth mindset here. Satya Nadella talked about Carol Dweck's principles when he was trying to change the organization we took over at Microsoft and wanted to go from a know-it-all organization to a learn-it-all organization. So I mean she has really reached far and wide. Now there is quite an industry that's come off the back of it. There's, interestingly, a body of research saying that the impact isn't as great as she makes out that others have struggled to replicate her studies. So I mean it is just vast now the conversations around this. I think there's no doubt that we know mindset has an impact and we can then kind of squabble on the percentages of that on our performance, but I find it really interesting the number of people that maybe adopt, think they adopt, growth mindset thinking and then actually they're operating to uh well, you know it. Only really we have to hit these markers and we have to get these results and we have to win the race, whereas actually the growth mindset piece is putting learning at the heart of it.

Cath: 8:32

And I remember a fairly recent interview with her when they asked what are you spending your time now? You kind of doing anything. You writing any new books, doing new research? And said well, actually I'm going around the world trying to explain how to apply gross mindset thinking in all the places that think they are applying it but actually have misunderstood it or tried to fit it into a system that fundamentally undermines it. And, in a way, education is that, well, you have to get these grades. And yet she's saying you know, we've got this great sort of what's the possibility, what's the potential for each child? And then, of course, you know, within two months we're ranking them all, and so there's this struggle in education that of course, we then see in the workplace as well. So she is a giant in this area. So great, great book to kick us off. Yeah, what's your first one, right? I'm also going to start with another giant thinker in this space.

Colin: 9:21

Before you start, it's worth me making the point. We're in a studio in Soho together, so Cath brought her books in, like obviously I can't carry all of mine from Australia, but they're all dogged, they're completely dogged, like they've been read in time. Sorry, kat, go with your first one.

Cath: 9:36

Yeah, exactly so it's because we're in London. I was kind of scouring my shelves this morning, so this is my first one here, very dogged, full of markers and things. And this is Margaret Heffernan's second book. A Bigger Prize why no One Wins Unless Everyone Wins. Now I would massively recommend all of her books.

Cath: 9:55

Her thinking has been huge and I found it really had a big impact when I was writing my book, particularly this one because of the theme of it but also the style of her books are so engaging. There's so much research, there's so many stories as well. And her first book, which maybe she's most famous for, I don't know is called Willful Blindness and I find myself thinking about that time and time again. I think I've mentioned it on some of our podcasts when you think about the leadership in the post office or the Met Police, where there is this complete blindness to what's happening culturally and yet you can't say you didn't have the opportunity to notice it, to act on it. So I find that first book resonating hugely with a lot of the crises happening at the moment. But I just loved A Bigger Prize because it was the first time I really saw someone who'd been thinking and pulling together the research to really reframe what winning means, the importance of collaboration rather than competition.

Cath: 10:48

She looks at this whole experience through the lens of growing up, through the lens of sport, through the lens of business and the fact that winning always incurs costs, and how we've leaned so heavily on competition, hoping that it will solve our problems, motivate our children, inspire adults and reinvigorate companies and institutions.

Cath: 11:08

But we have shied away from the uncomfortable truth that our exaggerated veneration for competition has left us ill-equipped to solve the problems it has created. If we are to invent new ways to live and work together, we need high levels of trust and give and take, elements that competition so specifically and subtly corrodes. And so it was a huge influence on my own book, the Long Win, and I thought right, I need to move this subject on, I need to bring further perspectives, I need to offer something more. And I actually got to meet Margaret on a couple of occasions and she was really supportive and gave a testimonial for the book and really helped move my thinking on, because I book was called Uncharted and she has a great TED talk as well. So Margaret Heffernan is a thinker that you will both enjoy and feel able to be a better leader. Manager colleague after reading.

Colin: 12:09

Something interesting to say about Margaret is that at the start of the year she wrote an article for the Financial Times about how no senior leaders read books. She says in her article I have yet to meet a chief executive who reads regularly. Many skip. Newspapers and magazines are a stretch. They don't have time, they say it's inefficient. At a pinch they might pick up a business book before a long flight in the hope that, like a cookbook, it will provide a foolproof recipe. And then she says but outside those narrow pools of interest, a vast ocean awaits, bountiful with simmering ideas, mental adventure and imaginative refreshment. Brilliant.

Cath: 12:49

Reading is such a good way to slow down the work rhythm in order to recover, but also to allow your brain to start thinking, which is what we're so capable of, rather than just being a machine that's pinging back emails. I always found it really impressive how both Bill Gates and Barack Obama, famously, have said they made time to read and imagine what their schedule looks like. I feel mine is overwhelming. I cannot imagine what your schedule as President of America is like or being Bill Gates, and yet isn't that interesting that they really prioritized reading as a way of making sure they were, yeah, taking time to think about the bigger picture. I think strategically, think longer term, and so I always think it's a great sign when I meet somebody.

Cath: 13:38

Sometimes some of the senior leaders that I coach are people who are interested in reading, and that is part of how we connect or part of why they perhaps want to work with me and have discussions with me, so I always think that's great. I recently worked with a coffee company and the CEO there, who is one of my long-wind leaders in the new version of my book, he was someone who was really interested in reading would make time listen to audiobooks, go for a walk an hour before work and I knew at that point he was a really thoughtful leader and has been able to do some really bigger picture transformation within the company, rather than just sort of tinkering and an endless to-do list. So yeah, two female, brilliant female titans in this space. What's your second book recommendation?

Colin: 14:26

My second book and I think before we recorded the podcast, Cath and I were like oh, how many books should we share? It was like, oh, three each, no problem, but we spent 15 minutes talking about two. So this could make it become a regular segment actually where we talk about our favorite books. So my second one is Eleven Rings by Phil Jackson. Now, phil Jackson is now the Eleven Rings relates to the amount of NBA titles, so he's an NBA coach. So he coached 11 NBA champion teams. He's a four-time NBA All-Star coach, coach of the Year in 96, top 10 coaches in NBA history You've got all of the things.

Colin: 15:00

But what I like about it is someone who works with sports teams is the practicality of it. And Phil Jackson is one of those rare leaders, particularly in sport, who actually takes the time to build culture first, and he's quite a spiritual guy as well. So he does all of the emotional intelligence stuff, all of the engagement stuff. He does all of these things and he's quite a spiritual guy as well. So he does all of the emotional intelligence stuff, all of the engagement stuff. He does all of these things and so it's a highly practical book and he's vulnerable in it too, in the sense that he talks about what he had to sacrifice to get to where he got.

Colin: 15:31

He was a former player himself and he had a very particular way of thinking and acting. He recognized that you know the generation gaps, every you know, I think he says every day the gap between generations becomes more apparent and what he wanted to do was to create an environment where it would pull people together. Not for him, he wasn't the kind of coach who would, you know, kind of work with someone like Dennis Rodman and say Dennis Rodman was the bad boy of basketball. If you, if you're unfamiliar with him he's made mates with Kim Jong-un. You know people like that. He you know. Not for him to sort of say I don't understand this generation. He took the time to really learn, really understand. He recognized that. You know him, being transparent, him being vulnerable, was key.

Colin: 16:20

The players won't stand for a coach who aren't honest and straightforward. He could have the difficult conversations but crucially, he put the emphasis on the team to create the culture that they needed to be successful. Of course he was part of the team, but he recognized that if the team don't create that culture, then they'll never feel that sense of belonging, they'll never drive each other towards success. The emphasis would always be on him, as a coach, to generate motivation, but it would be extrinsic, not intrinsic, and so for me, it was one of those books that I read that I was like here's a coach who really understands the concept of high performance.

Colin: 16:59

High performance is the players working together to set the culture of the team from which they can drive each other to success, and throughout all of that there was reflection. At the end of every season or in preseason, he would give everybody a different book to read, and so he would think about the player and what they needed at that time, and it was different books for different players, and for me, that's the real demonstration of leadership. I've connected one-to-one with that human being. Here's something that I feel that would really help them and generate that connection. So, yes, 11 Rings by Phil Jackson.

Cath: 17:38

Brilliant and it's very practical because he's showing the application of these principles, isn't he? And he's probably one of the early coaches that started to move away from the sort of macho directive you know, bossing it around kind of style, isn't he? And that's even more impressive in a way that he was starting to navigate this before it had any sort of following in a way. And I think now we will point to many of the Premier League managers and to people like Gareth Southgate in the England football team who are leaders who are kind of in this style Serena Wiegmann as well of being more compassionate, of understanding, of creating togetherness, of valuing culture Still probably not the majority of sports coaches, but he was really doing this before. He can't have been looking around seeing many others doing this.

Colin: 18:26

No, he wasn't. And he talked about the relationship that he had with the ownership. The ownership wanted instant gratification and he was like you have to trust me, you have to trust the process and I'm still surprised I was with the major sporting body last week Just how many people still have never read or understand people like Phil Jackson and they've seen or they've looked in same with Alex Ferguson. You know, I read Sir Alex Ferguson's autobiography and he talked about the relationship he had with the hierarchy in the club, how he had their trust, but also then how he worked with the players to set the culture of Manchester United and partly if you, if you follow sports, manchester United aren't great at the minute and part of the problem is they have no culture and because it kind of left with Sir Alex Ferguson. So Eleven Rings continues to be a blueprint for modern day leadership and it's relevant whether you work in sports or not.

Cath: 19:15

Yeah, great book. Oh, you raised quite a few issues there with that whole man United thing and Ferguson. I mean, when I was watching that Beckham documentary I was not really liking a lot of what I was seeing from Ferguson Very controlling, very dominating, anyway I think we should probably come back to that.

Colin: 19:30

We should do a football episode. It was probably suitable for its time. Not so much now. What's your second one?

Cath: 19:35

Okay, there we go, geek, I am bringing them off my bookshelf today. It actually follows really well on from the Phil Jackson one. I mean how attuned it's. Owen Eastwood's book Belonging the Ancient Code of Togetherness, which is just a really beautiful read. He goes back to the principles of Maori culture to think about the most fundamental needs that we have to connect and feel that we are connected to something greater than ourselves and to connect to each other, and that is the basis of his work with teams that's ranged from the England football team, the South African cricket team, new Zealand teams. He also works in business and has worked with groups, law firms, I think. Actually, recently he was also back in the world of sport no ballet school, I think it was so very sought after and he has a very powerful way of drawing on something that is probably been absent in certainly most corporate cultures, but it's just part of who we are. I love he particularly emphasizes this concept of waka papa.

Colin: 20:45

Waka papa. Oh, is that how you pronounce it? Oh?

Cath: 20:48

yeah, there we go. Thank you for your Antipodean support there. And and this is the sort of starting point in his work he sort of says how it unlocks our sense of identity. If we inherit a legacy, we extract meaning from it. We shape our story with Our deeds will be expression of the identity we build, and this is what he enables teams to do is to create their own story and in the case of Gareth Southgate's England, it was about understanding the story today as one of failure, of blame, of not being together, of being pushed around by public opinion and the media, and it was sort of really reshaping what was the story that they wanted to create in order to plot charts and plot a different path.

Cath: 21:33

And very powerful the work that he did. So it's a beautiful book, both personally and professionally to read. I think a lot of our books around culture actually have that impact on both our personal lives as you were describing there with parenting and Carol Dweck's book and our professional lives, and there's something very human about really engaging with this sort of work and I wish there was a bigger space for this to be part of education really growing up, because it's fundamental to whatever work you do. Whatever space you go into, you're going to have to work with others and help us think about the impact we want to have, who we are coming into those spaces. So, yeah, I hugely recommend that.

Cath: 22:11

I had the privilege of interviewing him for an article last year and I just could talk to him forever. It's so simple and yet so deep in the way that he believes and has an impact on others through his work and, interestingly, he also would say I'm not a trained coach. He's done no coaching badges. He actually started off life as a lawyer and there's something again very kind of natural. He says I only do stuff that works and I'm learning all the time from the teams I'm working with so very much, not just coming and slapping a framework down, but bringing these principles to life with the teams that he works for. So bringing these principles to life with the teams that he works for.

Colin: 22:47

So are we going to share one more recommendation? Yeah, one more, just very quickly, on Owen Eastwood. I lived and worked in New Zealand for six years. I became familiar with his work when I was there and a very strong tribal Maori culture. There's so much you can learn just by reading about other cultures, and that's the anthropological stuff that Cath touched on, particularly the, which is about the process of building relationships, connecting with others and establishing a sense of belonging. So, yes, excellent book. So one more, one more. Uh, so I mean one more. I mean I know you could do a hundred more, I feel so, so sorry, I could just do one book every week.

Colin: 23:24

Yeah, yeah yeah, we should do that. So my last one is slightly unconventional because I'm not big on military books. Whenever I read a military book I always think of, particularly if they're about war. I always think about human suffering and all of those kinds of things, and there's elements of it where I'm reading about strategy and I'm troubled by what's happening in the world. But this particular one I really enjoyed so I want to incorporate here. So it's Team of Teams New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World by General Stanley McChrystal and he talks specifically about operations in Afghanistan.

Colin: 23:59

Now what I liked about it is I was a bit of a corporate maverick about it. I was a bit of a corporate maverick. I think I got once described as by not conforming with some of the cultural norms and developing, and I always used to talk about the fact that the work that we did in our team specifically contributed to the overall culture because we were doing something different. And McChrystal's book was the first book that I feel that I've read that really articulated clearly this team of teams, as he calls it, subcultures, as I call it. The importance of that is that too often what we do is we have these hierarchical top, middle, bottom right, and he talks about the fact that we think that, as leaders, that's the way to get maximum efficiency, when actually the way to get maximum efficiency is through adaptability, and you know he makes a strong claim for that being the kind of core competence is for managers to be guided by a central vision, a central set of values, but actually to create something that works for them within their context but also connects with others, and this is something that really got me thinking about.

Colin: 25:17

Well, okay, we've talked in the past about how middle managers really are the foundation for great cultures, because we need middle managers to really set the purpose of their team in line with the values, but also to create something that has this common sense of purpose.

Colin: 25:33

So it's, rather than it being, a vertical, you report to you report to you. It's who do I need to interact with, in line with our values, to make sure that we get the outcome that we're looking for. You know he made the point that teams are really messy. What we don't want is for everybody to know everybody, to know everyone's role. We just need the right people to know the other right people at that moment in time and then work in line with the values and purpose to actually deliver what we needed. Too often, I think, organizations get stuck in these silos and that's where, you know, I was guilty of it in the past myself because I was doing as I think mine was a positive silo, but I was doing one thing in one way, and actually, if we teach managers the same way to build teams, you remove the possibility of silos because you create this magical culture of a team, of teams.

Cath: 26:27

So I love that book as well, and it's a really dense book. I remember sort of having to take some time to read it because it's very tightly packed with research and stories. And I think he led the US forces in Iraq and so it hugely resonated because I could see this happening. They were confronted with an enemy that was very fluid, very agile, changing all the time, didn't even necessarily have one clear leader, and the enormous juggernaut of the US army, with tons of layers of hierarchy, was just too slow. Some information would come into an intelligence officer in one place and by the time it got to somebody on the ground who could do something, they were way behind the curve. And that's really what got him to think differently. I think previously they've been trying to speed up the chain and it still was never fast enough, and so that's why he was thinking it has to look different. And so he pulled out that concept of the messiness of communications to enable communications to flow in a way that isn't just going through the manager, the chain, up the general, the next level, but actually that intelligence officer needs to have some sense himself of who might need that information and be able to make that link directly and that comes, you know. Then you see much more of a networked approach, you see people embedded in different parts of the organization because, again, there are huge silos of, yeah, I work in intelligence, I work in operations on the front line and, you know, again, these people would never talk to each other. That just doesn't work anymore. If we want collaboration, we've got to start allowing this cross flow, cross functional leadership, cross, you know, making sure we're doing work in different parts of the organization sideways, not just on a, on a sort of greasy pole upwards. And so, yeah, I think it's a huge book, it has so much in it. Uh, so brilliant recommendation. All right, Cath, and your last recommendation. So my last one actually has a link to that, purely by chance.

Cath: 28:28

It's called Winning, not Fighting, and it is written by John Vincent, who is the co-founder and chief executive of Leon, the restaurant chain, and he's written it with Sifu Julian Hitch and the subtitle is why you Need to Rethink Success and how you Achieve it with the Ancient Art of Wing Tsun. So essentially, he wants us to move away from the traditional war metaphors for running the business and showing how the language of war and conflict actually doesn't help how we conduct business, the culture we have, our stress levels and ultimately our ability to succeed. So he says you know, for too long war has cast a shadow on how we think about business, with negative implications for us, the companies we work in and on the planet. And so he draws on the philosophy of Wing Tsun, an ancient Chinese martial art founded on the idea that fighting is fundamentally bad. And so they challenge some of the deepest held assumptions that we have, help us to unlearn ideas and behaviors that are actually preventing our personal and professional growth.

Cath: 29:38

And I love the emphasis that comes in there on mastery. So the martial arts are all kind of underpinned by this. You know, in a way a really core concept in Eastern culture of mastery we never finish learning. We've never become the end product. We've never become. You know, I finished learning. You know martial arts, you know, just as we never finished learning in our lives and actually that sort of more infinite thinking I sometimes call it about some cynics infinite mindset concept is much more helpful into getting this constant improvement as at the heart of success. Successes around learning, growing, supporting others to do that, and there's a humility that comes with that. Nobody has all the answers, whatever our role, whether we're chief executive or not, but we can always be open to learning, and so it's a really interesting rethink that, again's very practical. So he takes lots of practical business situations and then applies these principles from the martial art of Wing Tsun into them. So yeah, lovely kind of business example of rethinking culture.

Colin: 30:45

Fabulous. I haven't read that one, so I added that to my massive list of books to read. Oh thanks, the infinite, the infinite list of books to read.

Cath: 30:50

Oh thanks, Scott the infinite, the infinite pile of books to read.

Colin: 30:53

I'll revert to type as a scouser and just steal it from you on your way out.

Cath: 30:57

Yeah, feel free.

Colin: 30:58

So I think our central lesson here is to go back to Carol Dweck's quote right at the start is you can always improve how intelligent you are, and books are a great way to do that. Whether you prefer a physical copy I still prefer a physical book or you prefer a Kindle, give it a go. Just find one that you think you can enjoy, make some notes and then, yeah, move on to the next. And if you do find something you enjoy, please feel free to share it with us. We'd love to hear your book suggestions.

Cath: 31:25

You never know, we may not have read it yeah, send in your recommendations, for sure, that would be brilliant. Yeah, great conversation, fantastic Thanks, matt. Thanks for listening to today's Inside Out.

Colin: 31:38

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