Inside Out Culture

Your Culture Questions Answered - Fluffy culture, accountability, do HR need to improve and more!

• Inside Out Culture • Season 1 • Episode 21

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On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.

Specifically we look at:

How do I avoid my culture becoming ‘fluffy’?!
What does it mean to create a ‘coaching culture’ in our organisation (and is it the right thing to do)?
How much conflict should be expected in a vibrant culture?
Is it possible to have a genuine values-based culture in the corporate world?
Do HR need to up their culture game?
Why is accountability so difficult to set up in work cultures?

Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.

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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

Instagram: @insideoutculture

Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com

Receive the Culture Leaders Action Sheet: bit.ly/iocpmail

Colin:

Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis.

Cath:

And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.

Colin:

We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think.

Cath:

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Inside Out Culture Podcast, and today we are looking again at the culture questions that we've received through the course of our work or that you've sent in, and we've got a huge range again and these questions really enable us to dig a little deeper and think about all of those. But what about this type of question? So we're looking forward to the conversation today, colin.

Colin:

We're really looking forward to that. We're in person, Cath, we're making a habit of this, and what I love about being in person and answering these questions is that we'll record this and then we'll start a conversation about it in the middle of the other show recordings and then we're like, oh, we should have said this. Why didn't we say that?

Cath:

Yeah, we get to kind of really continue the discussions. I always find that when I'm recording, sort of three hours later or in the middle of the night, I go, oh why didn't I mention this? That's really important. But actually, yeah, we're all learning, we're all learning. So let's kick off. First question and this is one I'm glad you're going to go first on this, because the word in this question slightly triggers me how do I avoid my culture becoming fluffy?

Colin:

Oh, gosh, the fluffy word, yeah, and I can understand the trigger, and it's one of those things that, I must admit, it used to really wind me up when I used to hear it not so much these days, which I'll explain in a second, but it did it was just like oh gosh, because the inference is all of this people, stuff is worthless, it's a waste of time, and, of course, that's not true.

Colin:

However and this is the point that I want to make is often a lot of the initiatives that we invest in don't actually improve performance, and I think that's a really big issue, and so I think the question is valid, and what you want and I've talked about this or I've written about this in the past is actually vibrant culture sits at the intersection between high emotional intelligence, which is often the stuff we think of as the fluffy stuff, and high engagement, and high engagement really is about intrinsic motivation. Do we have a vision that acts as an aspiration? How invested are we in our own development? How invested are we in contributing to the team? How invested are we in actually acting on the feedback? And the feedback often is the emotional intelligence piece. So there is a real intersection, and I think the reason that often people think it's fluffy is they'll do away days where they talk about stuff. Maybe they would bring out the Lego in the corporate world.

Cath:

The towel with the spaghetti.

Colin:

Oh gosh, the spaghetti and the blue tack. I used to die inside. Every time I saw spaghetti I expected when people broke it and I'm not even Italian, or things like personality profiles. I always think that's 50%. You know, I ran a cultural workshop in Cambridge last week and 50% of it is on the emotional intelligence piece. So this is this relationship building, helping people to understand oneself all the time. But 50% is well. What do we want to do differently? What's the stuff that's fundamentally broken and holding back performance? How are we going to achieve our targets together? What's the dumb stuff we want to let go of? Or what's the good stuff? What do you see, kat?

Cath:

Yeah. So language is important, and when people bring out that fluffy word, it really irritates me because it's just part of a macho narrative that should be so outdated and not listened to anymore. That is what does it represent? A culture of inhibition, of dehumanizing people. It's brittle, it's uncollaborative, it's a place where people don't thrive. That's actually what Fluffy belongs to, a way of thinking that creates cultures like that.

Cath:

And so I think all of this language, that soft skills again, that's a phrase that somehow devalues the importance of culture. But this is how stuff gets done. I mean, it doesn't get more concrete than that. So I think it's important to reframe and to explain. Psychological safety is not something soft. It's actually about radical candor, a space where we can really hold each other accountable to do things to a high standard. That is not fluffy.

Cath:

And so I think you know, if you come back to thinking about what culture is about it's about the habits, the beliefs, the ways we do things that determine how we get stuff done then start asking those questions about how can we do things better. If you're interested in performance, then you're interested in culture. So for me, there's a reframing bit here. There's a challenging some of these outdated narratives, but I do agree. Yeah, don't just sort of think, oh well, if we all go off bowling, then everything will be fine. No, because this is serious. This is about creating a way of doing things together with complex people, complex complementary skills. It's not easy, and that's why we need to invest in this and ensure it's driving high performance or sustainable performance. And ensure it's driving high performance or sustainable performance. So challenge the language and think about why culture matters.

Colin:

Yeah, and just to build on that very briefly, language is important, so you use things like radical candor, and I think there are some leaders who have an aversion to these kinds of things. Same with psychological safety or the Touching American concept. At the end of the day, you use the language that suits the organization that you work in, but these things are still really important. Psychological safety is about making sure that people feel safe to speak up at any time and they can do their job without fear, harassment, bullying, any of these kinds of things. So, absolutely right, calf's language is important.

Cath:

It's about how we work. It's about the fact we're humans. If we want to get the best out of people, then let's get investing in our cultures.

Colin:

Absolutely All right. Next question oh, this is a good one. What does it mean to create a coaching culture in our organization and, crucially, is it the right thing to do?

Cath:

Yeah, really interesting question, and I hear lots of organizations often exploring this, wanting to do it, even claiming they are a coaching organization, because everyone's had a bit of training, or a few people have, and I think it's a really helpful tool to creating a culture where people can thrive, where we start to really unlock people's potential, where they're developed through their roles. They're not just machines churning out stuff. So I think it actually is a huge commitment. It's not something we just do for a quarter and then we're done. We've got the coaching culture. It's a commitment, though, to a way of working that really helps unlock potential. It moves us away from a directive space.

Cath:

So a coaching culture is one in which leaders see their prime objective as drawing out the talent in their organization, of developing people, and that's really what success looks like for them. It's developing, of developing people, and that's really what success looks like for them. It's developing people around them, and that makes a lot of sense, because a leader in themselves has got a limited number of hours in the week. It's not about how much they can do, it's about how they can create the conditions for others often quite big teams, potentially to deliver their best. And that's a shift, because often we get promoted for doing good work ourselves, but actually we need to shift as a leader to facilitating others to do good work, and that could mean that our day looks quite different. So it's a move away from being directive and telling people what to do, which usually demotivates, demoralizes and stops people themselves working out things and sharing their own ideas of how we might do it better.

Cath:

It's part of a learning culture if you've got coaching, because it's not just giving the answer, it's saying what are all the possible answers that we together come up with so we can find the best answer to pursue. And it's a great tool for engagement, for people feeling, yes, someone's interested in my views and they're interested in me becoming a better lawyer, director, manager, whatever it is that we're doing. That's part of work life as well, not just hitting those targets over there. So I think it's a great thing to pursue. There's a great thing to invest in. So I think it's a really good first step if you're looking to humanize a culture and unlock potential. And who isn't looking to do that?

Colin:

And I think For me it's one of those basic managerial skills We've talked in the past about. I don't feel like enough emphasis is placed on how do we teach managers how to be managers, and there's a distinction between coaching and mentoring. And coaching exactly as you said, Cath is how do we help people to come to the answer themselves, whereas mentoring is kind of? Here's the answer. What can I do to support you implementing it?

Colin:

And I think you know, certainly in my own experience, too many managers go straight to mentoring. Here's the answer right, go and do it when actually the greatest learning comes from. Well, you know asking, asking someone's question. You know I've always used the grow model personally. You know how do we help people to get to the answer themselves, such that then the learning you know becomes embedded, rather than just giving them the answers. You know it's it's quite a saying this to my daughter about her exams is that if someone gave you all the answers, you're not learning anything, whereas if someone actually gives you the text to read and you create your own notes and coach yourself, then that's where you learn and it's too yeah, and it also frees the leader up in the future.

Cath:

They're not coming back for the next set of answers and you can usually then start to do the more strategic work rather than getting sucked down into the details of how you might do something. There's actually a great harbour business review article. I will put a link onto the action sheet. That sort of says beware, lots of organizations think they're coaching because they've done the course, but they slip back into directive language all the time. So it is something you need to constantly refresh and be be sort of really holding each other accountable for that, because it's very tempting to go well, I know the answer. Let me give it to you because it's quicker, but actually it's not quicker long term to do that. So, yeah, it's really interesting area to explore. So I'm always encouraging of organizations wanting to create more of a coaching culture. Next question how much conflict should be expected in a vibrant culture?

Colin:

Oh, loads, loads. It's the Liverpool leader and me speaking. We should be fighting all of the time. Obviously, I'm not encouraging that, although I'm not sure if I've shared it on the podcast. I worked somewhere once where somebody did punch someone in the face.

Cath:

That's happened in an Olympic rowing environment. Is that right? Oh my gosh.

Colin:

You never forget, like I'll never forget, the sound of it, like it was a pro, like, and it wasn't even a slap, it was a proper punch and the guy got sacked the next day Rightly so. Terrible, uh, how much conflict should be expected? Uh, some. Um, I think what you want to do is to create an environment, and we've talked about this on our feedback episode. If you haven't listened to that, I encourage you to listen to that. We want to create an environment where it becomes easy to share insights, knowledge, but also feedback, like immediate feedback on what did we notice? What did we see? How can we improve what went well? What are some opportunities for improvement?

Colin:

You know, my view on this has always been if there's no conflict, then what you end up with is what I call a pleasant culture. It's just a bit too nice and we want highly emotionally intelligent people. That's great. We want a degree of harmony, but there should be, you know, kind of constant challenging of each other in a psychologically safe way, where we feel like we're working together towards a better solution. And so you know you should see it every week.

Colin:

You know, one of the best leadership teams that I worked in, actually here in the UK my last job for Shop Direct Group before I left for New Zealand in 2007, we had a really what I would call high performing leadership team. We would go into our leadership team meetings knowing that, you know, we'd a really what I would call high performing leadership team. We would go into our leadership team meetings knowing that we'd done all of our preparation, the manager that we had was really good at preparing us, and we knew that we had an opinion. It would be given some airtime, but also it would be challenged. Never once did I go into those meetings thinking, oh gosh, this is just going to be harmonious, it's going to be nice. There was a degree of challenge. I always felt that that got us to a better outcome. So there should be some healthy conflict where we're not saying anything personal and we're not taking anything personally. It's really focused on the quality of the outcome.

Cath:

Yes. So the way the question's asked how much conflict should be expected in a vibrant culture is coming from such a sort of quantitative space as well. I feel like the answer should be about 26 minutes a week or something, but of course it definitely doesn't work like that. It depends a little bit on what conflict means. So, yeah, the punching stuff is not good. On no occasion is that good For me.

Cath:

Disagreement is really healthy. I wouldn't see that as conflict. I'd see that as our responsibility to bring our different views in order to help us get to better solutions, make better decisions. But some people might find disagreement, as might experience that, and think, oh, this is getting into a conflict space. So it's really important to actually decide and define what does healthy challenge, candid feedback, a high performance environment what does it mean so that when we start to say, oh, hang on, I'm feeling uncomfortable because we're disagreeing, we actually go no, that's what we want. Yeah, this is what's helping us to improve, to come up with better ideas, to create better value together, to come up with better ideas to create better value together. So I think it's really important to actually define, you know, if the disagreement, the challenge, the feedback is helping the boat go faster in a rowing context, you know, or helping our business become, get moved closer to its purpose, to its goals, then it's helping us. If the conflict is serving some other purpose, it's about superiority, it's winning personal battles that's not helping us, that's going to pull us backwards.

Cath:

So I think it's, you know, again, it's about the context and making sure that we've got some you know agreements, some sort of team rules, if you like, around. We want challenge, we invite it. This is the space for it. In these meetings. We expect different opinions, but of course it needs to be respectful. We need to listen to other views, we need to accept that in a diverse team, not everyone's going to get the outcome they want either.

Cath:

So I think a lot of this is really thinking those things through that often we don't talk about, we don't make them explicit, and then we get into a difficult situation when we do have different strong views being aired. So it's a constant way of developing how we work as a team, to think about where does this fit in? And, you know, is there a line we want to draw? Where something isn't respectful, then that is not part of a healthy culture. So, yeah, it's a really tricky one, because it creates these feelings of discomfort and we all, perhaps, have slightly different natural gauge, so it is one that we have to therefore discuss, because we'll come at it with different expectations.

Colin:

Fabulous, fabulous, okay. Next question, Cath Is it possible to have a genuine values-based culture in the corporate world?

Cath:

Yeah, I actually mull over this question a lot myself sometimes, when I sort of work and see inside organizations and feel a bit disappointed that they've kind of got values but they're not really they're not important, they're not ones that, under pressure, are kept to Important people who are hitting targets sort of don't have to live them. So I see organizations that have values which are not genuinely values-based. But I think it's possible to do it. I think a big shift has come in the last sort of five years where we have moved away from this philosophy of corporate success being purely about maximizing shareholder return.

Cath:

And there was a big moment in 2019 when the Business Roundtable, this group of the most powerful CEOs of the biggest corporations in America, kind of got together and said, yes, that is not now the pure definition of success and brought in this bigger concept that there needs to be a purpose, we need to be serving society in a way. And so I think where there are purpose-driven companies genuinely not the purpose-washing companies, the ones who understand and can see the value that they're bringing through what their company provides, the services, the products then I think a genuine values-based culture fits in more easily. I think, when we are just purely chasing profit returns. It's a lot harder to do that. This is something I mull over a lot, because we want to and we believe that a healthy culture ultimately is best for performance and best for the people. But you certainly see many environments where that's unlikely to happen, I'm sad to say.

Colin:

Yeah so the four Ps quadruple bottom line, purpose, people, planet, profit and yeah so we have seen a shift more, with people thinking more and more about purpose, and I share your skepticism, Cath. I really want to believe that people understand how to do it. My worry is that values was on vogue. As often something within culture is Values was on vogue, kind of 2016, 17, 18, maybe pre-pandemic Purpose has grabbed the baton and now people are focusing on purpose without really thinking about, well, how do we do these things? Well, you know, I wrote recently about cultural box ticking where we've got that, we've got a purpose, we've got some values and on the values episode, I shared some example of good values. I'm working with a startup in Switzerland later this week and I was talking to the CEO on Friday about his values and his values are really good and he said how do we make sure that we actually stick to these values? Now we're scaling as a business, but, of course, what was great about that is he's asking the question.

Colin:

I don't feel that enough organizations are actually thinking about how to do it. You know and this is evident in the actual values that they've got you know and talked about this in the past, where they're single words, like you know integrity and ethical and all these kinds of things. They're not really values. I think it's very hard to have a values-based culture if A you're not doing values properly and B if you're not thinking about well, how are these practiced through our norms on a day-to-day basis, recognizing that different teams will demonstrate them in different ways.

Colin:

I think often what we see is this let's try and mandate culture aligned to the value, send out a PowerPoint deck with a description of how the value should be lived, which, of course, everybody ignores, and at that stage you haven't got a values-based culture. You're kind of just paying lip service to them. So, yeah, so I agree, I share your skepticism, but I'm really hopeful that people actually recognize that the next generation of workers want to see this done really well. In fact, the evidence shows that where they feel that value is based and purpose is done well, they'll stick around for five years. If not, then they'll leave within half that time.

Cath:

Yes, so it is possible. It's definitely not a given, and because we've gone down this route of pursuing profit at all costs, then that has often taken out environments. So it's sort of then, you know, we're kind of going back, we're trying to unpick things, but where there's a real commitment and that needs to come from the leadership, then it is absolutely possible and I agree, I think there's just huge competitive advantage, particularly if you're in a business where you need collaboration, innovation. You have to have a culture where people are thriving in order for them to work together, share ideas, co-create, answer questions. These complex challenges that the world now gives us, that no one's faced before. So I hope that there is also an increasing appetite to prove that it's possible.

Cath:

So the next one it feels a little tricky because we probably have lots of people listening from the HR world, but the question is do HR need to up their culture game? So this is an interesting one, isn't it? Because, yeah, it's a broad field. Hr can look quite a lot of different things. What? What do you think to this?

Colin:

yeah, how do we answer this without doing ourselves like a load of work, that's not a really scouting it? How do we answer this one doing ourselves?

Cath:

without offending people listening who we really want to work alongside and we hope we do.

Colin:

We're helping yeah, and and we do this all the time Listen I think that the simple answer here is if your culture isn't where it needs to be, then, yes, hr needs to up their culture game, but actually the entire leadership and management of the organization does too. I think you know, when I was researching detox your culture, there were a lot of examples where HR was ineffective, and so I think we have to acknowledge that I still come across many HR departments, actually come across people in culture departments who don't really understand culture, and so I think there's an opportunity for learning. In fact, you know a lot of the teams that I've worked with. When I think back, I've worked with a lot of IT teams, engineering teams and HR teams, and I love the HR teams that really want to know more about culture, and actually I worked with one who just wanted to be the best in the world, which was fabulous, and so I well, I think, gosh.

Colin:

I'm struggling to answer this a little bit, but I think I think what leaders need to do, what CEOs and leaders need to do, is actually give HR some teeth.

Colin:

I feel like HR sometimes has a seat at the table, but if everyone else goes, yeah, no, we can't afford to spend money on culture, then that's that done. And you know, the HR manager can be screaming until they're blue in the face and nothing will change anyway. And so I think, yeah, that's partly that. But I also think on the flip side of that listen, if I'm being honest HR has to stand up and be counted a little bit more. I think HR has to say all of the evidence you know I've read Cath book the Long Win and Colin's book Culture Fix and all of the evidence shameless plug, all of the evidence you know demonstrates that actually, if we invest in our culture, we get all of the returns. We need to do this level of activity every year if you want the results. So I think, yeah, if your culture is not where it needs to be, yes, hr can up their game, but actually the entire leadership and management team need to up theirs too.

Cath:

Culture is everyone's responsibility and it's really important that all the leaders are role modeling it. So sometimes I think also culture gets parceled off. Oh, you sort it out, hr, do a project, a culture change program, and then we're done and we can go back to the other important stuff and you're leading it over there. And I really don't like that sort of project approach. It might be that it's useful at times to make some shifts and to do some training and to kind of use a project, but to have that as the sort of default I find sort of uncomfortable, because culture is an ongoing responsibility for leadership teams and for everyone in the leadership team and culture of an organization is often a reflection of the leadership team. And if you don't like it, then you also need to do some work, often on yourselves, to change how you're working, and I think that's something that often gets missed off. Let's change everyone else. Let's make the others you know down there in the lower ends of the hierarchy do something different so we get the results we want. So yeah, taking full responsibility at the top is important across everyone.

Cath:

I think sometimes also people come into HR because it's such a broad field with specific skills, maybe around the legal side, maybe around employment law, maybe around the sort of hiring, firing processes, which are, of course, really, really crucial and in the past may have been the skills that the organization required and prioritized, and then suddenly these people are being asked to do something quite different and so taking a sort of legalistic approach, you know, or a sort of narrow let's have a process for this. Yeah, that doesn't really work now, because we're dealing with something much more complex. So I think it's important for sort of HR to be able to then, you know, bring in the expertise or themselves, go on a journey with the other leaders and ensuring that everyone gets it around that leadership team table.

Colin:

Yeah, yeah, culture is not a project because it never ends. Great point, okay, Cath. Last question why is accountability so difficult to set up in work cultures?

Cath:

I think about this a lot. It feels difficult even with really quite well-functioning leadership teams, and I think it comes back to a lack of the team itself having an identity at the top and you know any team sort of lower down. If we're very much rewarded for what we do on our own, then we sort of it's like well, I live and die by what I do, so I don't want to get your view of that. I think the sort of siloed nature of organization again means I've got no right to hold I'm in sales and I've got no right to hold you in marketing to account, because that's your business, I look after mine, you look after yours and rather than the sense of how can we help each other. And so I think there's something about some of those internal structures, what we're rewarding because accountability is about shared responsibility, really it's saying we're going to do this together and I'm going to hold you accountable and you're going to hold me accountable, so that we can together create this, reach this shared goal. And often that shared goal isn't really replicated by promotion structures, reward structures, performance management structures, appraisal structures. So I think there's something about the kind of individual versus collective balance within the culture of organizations.

Cath:

I think we also don't talk about what accountability means, and so, again, people feel threatened.

Cath:

Are you telling me I'm not doing my job properly? Rather than great, you're here to help me be even better at my job and I'm going to help you be even better at your job. And so there's to help you be even better at your job. And so there's that commitment which, again, in a sports environment, thinking about the rowing crews we were very much holding each other accountable because we can help each other to go faster and you can see things I can't see, and I can see things you can't see, and we're committed to that.

Cath:

It's no good me just developing myself because we're part of a crew. And so I think often we don't sort of set up the parameters of what accountability means and follow through and continue to develop. We're holding each other accountable on this stuff and often it's easier to do it on have you done a piece of work or not? But are we holding each other accountable on behaviors? Oh, that's a bit more uncomfortable. So I also see this sort of sense of you know not applying it fully. So I think there is quite a bit of upskilling or just having more, getting more comfortable with conversations about this area.

Colin:

Yeah, the only thing I would add there I agree with all of that is that we just need to get better at setting expectations. I think we expect people just to take accountability without actually outlying well you know, kind of this is what it means, this is what my expectation is, this is what I expect from you and this is what you can expect from me. We're just not very good at having those conversations. I think too often what we do is we make assumptions that people have taken accountability for something, when the reality is we haven't outlined it in those really specific terms. So then it becomes really you know, it just becomes really disappointing that they actually didn't do it.

Cath:

Why aren't we good at those conversations?

Colin:

Oh, again, it's another one of those basic management skills, Cath? We're not taught how to do it, and now we're becoming increasingly lazy with our communication and what we're trying to do is pass accountability via email, and the assumption is I've written this email so you will read it in the way that I intended, and of course that's just not true. And so you said it. Conversation. Why don't we go to these conversations? You're absolutely right. When it comes to accountability, when it comes to responsibility, these are actual conversations where we make an agreement and at that point it becomes easy to take accountability, not only for individual performance, but also for contribution to team performance too yeah, it's quite a big topic and I think there's probably things in our upbringing that impact on it as well and just this sort of.

Cath:

For me it's very much about in an individualist culture it somehow becomes more feels, more threatening, more uncomfortable, rather than actually it. When you get that working, it's driving us all to be better together, and who doesn't want that?

Colin:

Absolutely Well, fabulous. Another six questions answered. Just a reminder. If you've got a question, we'd love to answer it. You can drop us a note on LinkedIn if you follow us there, or else email us at insideoutculture at gmailcom. Thanks so much, Cath. Another lively discussion.

Cath:

Great, really thoughtful questions. Enjoy so much, Cath. Another lively discussion. Great, really thoughtful questions. Enjoyed that a lot. See you soon. Thanks for listening to today's Inside Out.

Colin:

Culture podcast. Please remember to like, subscribe and, of course, share with others who you think may be interested.

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Cath Bishop

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Colin D Ellis

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