Your Culture Questions Answered

On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.

Specifically we look at:

• Do we need to go back to recognising 'strong leaders' more in our organisations given current trends globally?
• What ‘inspiring people’ looks like in practice
• How to translate a vision and purpose into the culture?
• How to encourage people back to the office
• How can we manage uncertainty better? 

Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.

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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

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Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com

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Chapters

• 0:00 Podcast Introduction
• 4:14 How to Truly Inspire a Team
• 11:35 Translating Vision into Everyday Culture
• 18:24 The Office Return Dilemma
• 27:15 Managing Uncertainty in Modern Leadership

Transcript

Colin: 0:02

Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath.

Cath: 0:13

Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.

Colin: 0:27

We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think.

Cath: 0:33

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast, and today is our first questions episode for 2025. And we've been gathering questions. We've got quite a few that we've had come in, ones that we've heard. And we've been gathering questions, we've got quite a few that we've had come in, ones that we've heard, and, yeah, we've got some very topical ones, I think, to discuss today, colin, haven't we?

Colin: 0:52

Yeah, very topical. The first question is super topical and we're not going to mention any names, but I think people will recognize where we're going with this one. So the first question, Cath, over to you is do we need to go back to recognizing strong leaders more in our organization, given the current trends globally?

Cath: 1:11

Yes, and I've heard this a few times, I've heard it whispered and I've heard it asked loudly and one wonders if we ever really went away from it. But I think it raises the need to actually think about defining the leadership we want in our organizations, defining the leadership we need in order to be successful for us. So, rather than just looking and going oh look, there's a very loud, strong man leader over there. That must be what we need. I think it's really important to actually look at how our organizations run and actually, with the you know, increase in challenges, the sort of increase in unpredictability, the need to support people, to work in perhaps more, you know, challenging personal contexts, hybrid working making lives a little more complicated, which is something we'll come back to in a bit what sort of leaders required for quite a complex environment?

Cath: 2:06

I don't think it is this sort of heroic strength leading from the front, because I think we need much more of a nuanced approach. We need to be thinking about what does that organization need, not? What am I here to do to save it to? What are my ideas so that it's all about me at the top? I think we've come to often see heroic leadership as something that is outdated, that is also only short-term impactful, if it's impactful at all, and I think most organizations would do well to be thinking about actually what's going to help us sustain over 10 years, 20 years, 50 years actually what's going to help us sustain over 10 years, 20 years, 50 years? And they'll probably find that they need some different elements of the leadership than pure raw strength. What do you think?

Colin: 2:52

Yeah, I agree, I yeah, kind of strong means different things in different contexts. I come back to the research, and what the research says is that what most employers are looking for in their leaders is emotional intelligence, and often the view or the view in the past, Cath, is this is kind of the soft stuff that you know, the soft skills that everybody talks about. But emotionally intelligent leaders find ways to communicate with all people in all manner of ways. They put themselves into service to others. They are vulnerable when they believe it will help other people. They find ways to connect and build relationships. They put themselves on the front line so they're not afraid to roll up their sleeves when things aren't going as well. They listen empathetically. All of these things are really really difficult to do and for me, the definition of strength is recognizing when you need to step in and be someone who maybe you aren't more naturally, and there's a lot that we can learn from ourselves.

Colin: 3:54

I used to joke all the time when I first started speaking about I don't know, eight or nine years ago. I used to joke all the time about how do you know when a project's failing, they bring in a middle-aged man to fix it, because that was the view there is. Only a man can drag us out of this and fix it, when actually the opposite was required, and it's not gender-based. What we needed was someone who had compassion, who could build a relationship, who could take the time to understand, who didn't press the panic button. But I think you're right. I think that definition of leadership in different contexts is really important. I like the Ernest Hemingway quote. He said that the world and it seems irrelevant for right now the world breaks everyone and afterward some are strong at the broken places, and I think that's where we are within our ever-evolving world right now is what can we learn about ourselves, given the context that we're in right now, such that it helps us to be better in the future?

Cath: 4:48

Yeah, so we're actually thinking. Strong at what? Strong in giving clarity, yeah. Strong in defining a clear purpose, strong in listening those sorts of strengths would be good. But just as the concept and the definition of resilience has changed from one of physical strength to being one that's much more around adaptability, flexibility, understanding and being able to sort of develop ourselves in adversity, I think that's we need to redefine what strong leaders look like, don't we? But I find that adjective is probably not helpful because we still leap to that kind of physical, heroic definition.

Colin: 5:28

So, yeah, that's a great distinction. It's one of emotional strength rather than physical strength. Yeah, I agree with that.

Cath: 5:38

And maybe that would be quite useful. You know, sometimes I try and use strong language to think about well, actually, in order to get high performance, we need compassion and emotional intelligence in order to sort of bring people along. But change definitions as we go and just challenge that. What do we mean by strong leadership and what might actually be the qualities we need more of Good? So we're going to build a bit more on that with this next question that came to you, which was to say, as a leader saying, or perhaps a line manager as well, saying, I constantly am told that I need to inspire my team, what does this look like? That's a bit of a help question.

Colin: 6:17

Yeah, it was, and I think many managers find themselves in that position Is they're often told your job is to inspire and motivate a team. You've got to do all this other stuff over to the side, but when you're a people manager, you have to inspire and motivate your team. And yes, I spoke to this lady after an event that I spoke at and she's like well, practically, how do I do that? And of course, it's very difficult, because often we think as inspirational people, as highly extroverted people, comfortable in front of large groups of people, and yet you can be an introvert and still be inspirational. And so, you know, what I told her on the day is what I will share here is that it's about sharing your passion for something. This is just one element of inspiration, is the thing that you're passionate about. Find a way to articulate it. Find a way to share it with other people so that they can start feeling that sense of shared passion.

Colin: 7:11

I think creativity is key for inspiration as well. What we want is, if you're a manager, is to be curious about what's possible, is also to make time for different thinking, different ideas. Employees find that inspirational, particularly when you're pushing back against the cultural norm, and I'm not saying that you're doing it to be difficult or you're trying to create your own internal cult, but what you're trying to do is say, hey, listen, we see the way that the organization is working, we recognize that, but actually we're going to try some different things in different ways here, because we believe that will give us, you know, kind of more certainty around results. I think empathetic communication is key for inspiration. It's recognizing the individual and recognizing what they need from you at that moment in time.

Colin: 7:58

And for me, when I think about the inspirational people that I worked with and one of them was an extreme introvert, but what she did really really well is she got to know me and she knew exactly what I needed at the time that I needed it, and sometimes it was a stern word, but she stayed in control of her emotions. And the reason that I cited her as someone who was inspirational is I was able to get from her what I needed at that time to give me the motivation to do what I needed to do. How about you, Cath?

Cath: 8:27

Yeah, I like that. I think it's a really good question actually to put back to the person who brought this question, to sort of just stop and think and reflect about. When have you been inspired? Who has inspired you and think about in your personal life as well as work life?

Cath: 8:45

I often think it can be a bit of a trap to think I've got to inspire my team. We must have an away day and set our bold, ambitious goals, and there's nothing wrong with doing that, but that in itself is not really going to inspire people. I think it's much more what you do and how you show up on the difficult days, when things aren't going brilliantly, when it's tough and maybe you've got a lot on your plate to manage across your life. I think how we show up in those times is often when we really inspire people and people see us for who we are. I think there's something about understanding others. So, rather than I feel in the question there's this inherent sense that I, as the manager of a team, have got to get inspiration and know it and find it, and if I think hard enough, I'll know how to inspire everyone and, of course, the people who have the answer and can unlock it are your team, so there's nothing wrong with asking them what are the things that help you to be at your best? Or you know to give some examples of where you've thrived in work outside work.

Cath: 9:47

What's important, how can I support you and to actually let others answer the question for you, to find out what are the things that motivate people.

Cath: 9:57

So one of my favorite questions is to say what gets you out of bed in the morning and just to find that out about people we work with.

Cath: 10:04

So not just what's on the LinkedIn post, but what are the things that you look forward to in the day, what energizes you in a working day?

Cath: 10:13

Because if we can help others to tap into those things and make sure those things are happening alongside some of the dull, mundane stuff that just has to get done, if there are enough of those other energizing moments and people are getting out the things that are really intrinsically important to them, which are often around learning, growing, developing and connecting with others, and those two things, whenever I ask that question, the two that come out most. So I think if we can start making sure we're helping, you know, bring those moments into the workplace, then people are on a good track, but just finding out about others. So having that, those conversations, that's just part of this week. It's not just getting tasks done, it's finding out more about my team, how they're doing, how you know what would help them. What are the things they've enjoyed in this week? Not making assumptions or feeling we've got to guess that, but actually starting to work out gradually and seeing that as an ongoing challenge.

Colin: 11:09

Excellent. Okay, next question and linked to that so how to translate a vision? And a vision, of course, is a sense of aspiration that the organization provides. So on the one hand, that should be inspirational. So how to translate a vision and a purpose Kat into the culture?

Cath: 11:26

Yeah, I think this is interesting, isn't it? Something that's part of our work, isn't it? And I think it links quite closely to that previous question. And it isn't just about, again, the vision of purpose being set on that one day we all get together for the strategy day. It is about everyday conversations and making sure that you know, when we're looking at the work we're doing today, we're looking at our calendar, we're looking across how we're organizing ourselves to make sure that the vision and purpose are really threaded into that.

Cath: 11:57

So often I get this bizarre separation. We have a vision and a purpose. It's over here, it's on a piece of paper, and then I just turn up and the emails pour in, and If I'm then not spending time on the things that are actually connected to the vision, hey, guess what? We're not actually making progress. We might be really busy, but unless we are spending our time on the things that matter, which the vision and purpose give us a clear sense of, then we're actually not spending our time wisely. And so for me, it is asking that question and making sure that when I'm in a meeting, I understand how it relates to the bigger picture. So I think there's lots of connecting, making sure we're always asking those why questions? Or that lovely strategic tool of asking five whys this meeting? Why is it important In order to do this? Why does that matter? In order to get to this? And then we get ourselves back to the vision and purpose. Or if there isn't a good link back, then we probably need to question what we're doing with our time, if we need this meeting or if we need to be focusing on something else.

Cath: 12:57

So I think it is really bringing it into the everyday piece and when we're reviewing, have I had a good week Again? I often find people are over-reliant on the organizational tool of a to-do list. It's not did I do loads of stuff? It's actually what have I done this week? That it's not did I do loads of stuff? It's actually what have I done this week that's taken us a step closer to that vision and purpose. So reviewing review with that in mind. Not just did I reply to everyone who called me, yeah, the vision and purpose.

Colin: 13:25

I think I wrote last year about culture stuff and lots of organizations have lots of culture stuff. They have a vision, they have a purpose, they have values, they have behaviors. They have all these things and they only mean anything if you put them into action. So, echoing what you said, Cath, a vision is really it's about what you want to become. So an example of a vision statement and it has to be memorable if you're to truly achieve the vision. And your strategy should link to your vision. So everything in your strategy usually three years should link to the vision that you have so you might have globally recognized technology leader, for example. As a vision, Everything has to link to that, Everything, everything that you do. So, exactly what you said, Cath, every decision, you have to look at the decision and say will this decision contribute to us achieving the vision? And the vision has to be achievable. It's got to be achievable, to be believable, Because if people don't look at the vision and go well, we'll never. If they look at the vision and go well, we'll never achieve that, then it's not worth the website that it's printed on. So every priority has to link to the vision. There can't be any pet projects off to the side. I think this is where I've seen the mistake in the past. I remember one finance team were doing a finance project and like, how does that contribute to the vision? Well, it doesn't. It's just something we've wanted to do for a while. It all starts to raise those questions.

Colin: 14:44

A purpose, on the other hand, is really about what the organization stands for, and that can be more nuanced and more difficult. The purpose really informs the values, and then the values then have to be translated into meaningful day-to-day action so that then we become the kind of organization that lives its purpose. We've talked about this before, Cath. This is where manager training is key. It's not just about saying we stand for this, it's about, well, how do we put that into practice day to day? You know there's a great example. So Chelsea Football Club have a no hate initiative, which I love, right it's. You know, it's about how we make sure that everyone feels welcomed and included. You know what are the steps that we're taking to make sure that none of the isms are present within the club. And you know, within the stadium it's great.

Colin: 15:33

And yet at the start of the season, the club captain was found to have made racist and homophobic comments. He was videoed doing it. Of course, he apologized, but the club, they didn't put him on the transfer list and say, right, well, he doesn't conform to our purpose and what we stand for. He even kept the captaincy and they made excuses for that, and so in that moment, the club is really not living its purpose. I'm just using Chelsea as an example. There are many other examples, but I think if you're going to actually write your purpose down and it's something that you stand for, you have to be prepared to make the necessary decisions, exactly as you said, to demonstrate that it truly does mean something. Otherwise, it's just another pointless thing and another bit of culture stuff that you put on your website.

Cath: 16:21

Yeah, and one of the things actually within what you were saying there that I think is important to bring out and maybe helpful to bring out. I was talking to a MIA leader in a large corporation recently who was saying you know, my key job is to help people stop doing stuff so they can do the things that are actually going to help us deliver what we're here to deliver. And you know, I think, again, a vision and purpose ought to be a means of helping you stop doing stuff. So you talked about those pet projects. I just want to really emphasize that point because I think it's something we're often not very good at. There's this sense you've got to say yes to everything and then we're lost. It's actually the vision and purpose.

Cath: 17:00

Translating that is saying these things matter more because they're going to help us get towards this vision and purpose and we've defined it because that's actually what we're able to do, it's what we want to do, it's what we're set up to do, and a huge amount of inefficiency and then the sort of sense that at the end of the year, we've been busy, we haven't got somewhere, is because we haven't said no to things that take up a lot of time, but we think, well, someone's asked us to do it, it's on my to-do list now.

Cath: 17:30

Therefore, I'm doing a good thing if I do it. The vision and the purpose ought to give us a means of questioning it and go well, maybe it isn't what I should be spending time on, and I think that's a real area that often isn't done as well as it could be. It needs to be a collaborative discussion and I think it's a real key miss. It's one of the things that high-performing environments do do. They have that absolute clarity If this, in rowing terms, if this isn't making our boat go faster, we're not doing it. And that sort of clarity is where we want to kind of drill down further, be able to have more of those conversations that mean we're spending time on the things that are going to make a difference to the vision and purpose.

Colin: 18:12

Yeah Good, a hundred percent.

Cath: 18:14

So let's. The next question is one that we've been discussing and it comes up all the time Is there a good way to encourage people back to the office?

Colin: 18:24

Yeah, encourage is probably the right word there. I think, telling people to come back to the office. Listen, leaders are in this quandary at the minute, kind of post-pandemic, where everybody was forced to work from home. Listen, it had been possible We've talked about this before, it'd been possible for years to work from home. I was doing it for the Mirror Group in 2001, but it was very much a mindset shift. The pandemic forced most office-based staff to work remotely. It became a thing we got comfortable, and so on.

Colin: 18:56

There is a push, and there continues to be a push, to kind of encourage people to come back to the office. And you know, what I would say and all of the research backs it up is that face-to-face is still the best way to do some things Not all things, but some things and for me, the organizations that are doing this stuff really well are really looking at how can we strip out the inefficiencies in the way that we do things so that when we do actually come together, we're able to make much more of that time. However, there are a couple of things. It's firstly, the office has got to want to be a place that people come back, want to come back to. I did some work with an organization engineering organization and they were in this similar situation and the leadership team were really good, don't get me wrong. They wanted to do it in the right way, presumably. That's why they asked me to work with them. And they said you know, how do we get people to come back here? I was like is this where you work? And they were like, yeah. I was like is this where people work? He said, yeah. I was like, honestly, I wouldn't want to come back here. And of course I was half joking, but it was gray, it was drab, and I said I'm not asking you to spend a million pounds and completely refit the office. I was like but it's got to be welcoming. There've got to be different spaces. People have got used to having quiet spaces to have phone calls. They've got used to being able to knuckle down and just do it. This was open plan, which we know doesn't really benefit.

Colin: 20:22

Anyway, I think the other thing is to be mindful of an uneven employee experience. Now, what I mean by that is is, if 20% of your workers are office based and can work from home, but 80% work out in the field, then you have this uneven experience and what you need to do is to create equity within the organization when it comes to enhanced flexibility. That was the set that you know with one organization that I worked for. We went for a more enhanced flexibility approach rather than hybrid work, working from home.

Colin: 20:48

The language is really, really important, and the final thing that I would say is you can't have one rule for senior leaders and one rule for everybody else, and I always find this interesting because people often the leaders I speak to is like oh, these kids want to work from home, and they always make it about a generational thing. So what the research says is that the generation that is looking to work from home more right now is probably millennials, because their parents, they want that enhanced flexibility that we never got, unfortunately, when we were parents, and actually it's the leaders who spend more time away from the office than employees sometimes. So I think you can't afford to have different rules for different people. You need to be crystal clear about what the expectations are. You need to be honest and upfront and actually involve employees in that decision such that they feel that they've had some agency over it. Not everyone's going to be happy with everything, but then not everybody else is. So I think empathy is key. What's your view, kat?

Cath: 21:49

Well, yeah, I just want to dig back in. Tell me a bit more about this shift from describing it as hybrid working to enhanced flexibility. What was going on there?

Colin: 21:59

Yeah. So people don't really understand and again it's that classic, let's call it something without really understanding what it is. So true hybrid working, and there are very few organizations in the world that do true hybrid working. Essentially what happens is the team comes together at the start of the week, happens hybrid working, and there are very few organizations in the world that do true hybrid working. Essentially, what happens is the team comes together at the start of the week. It happens a lot in the technology world and they'll say what's the work we need to get done this week and where is the best place for us to do this? And so, in true hybrid environment, sometimes a team will be in the office together all week and sometimes they'll be working from home all week.

Colin: 22:32

It really depends on the work Now to get it right. I've worked with a few organizations during the pandemic. That got it right is you're kind of doing it a month in advance. So there's almost no surprise as you look at what you've got to work on. Right this week we'll be in the office and it's done on a team by team basis, and now we've got to manage who's in the office when, because we don't have enough desks, but there's a real structure to it. So that's true. Hybrid Enhanced flexibility is slightly different, and it's the approach that I always recommend, because what you want to do is give your employees the flexibility that they need. As soon as you give the individual the autonomy to decide where they need to be, certainly they feel that, okay, well, this is a welcoming environment. This is great, but it has to be done in the context of the team. Otherwise, you end up with what I call a stagnant culture, because everyone's just doing what they want to do rather than what's best for the team. Yeah, so that's the distinction.

Cath: 23:28

I think that's important because it highlights some really different conversations and perhaps that also gives listeners, line managers, a sense of how we frame this discussion. So it's about what we need, what our team needs, and then what we're delivering for the organization and the customers beyond, and I think it is often about developing the dialogue we're often. It is often about developing the dialogue we're often talking in culture, about improving the quality of conversations, the quality of dialogue, the partnership, the collaboration. It is different conversations working this out. And so in the question it says is there a good way to encourage people back? No, there isn't one good way, so I think that's almost the first thing to let go of that. There's a good way to encourage people back? No, there isn't one good way, so I think that's almost the first thing to let go of that. There's a right way to do this because it is so context, specific, dependent on the type of work you do, the organisation, the type of department you're in, your skills. So you know that in itself is a challenge because people just want the answer, just tell me what to do to get everyone back in. But no, we have moved into a different world that really ought to be a better world, where we're trying to help people get the most out of themselves, and so we need to start asking that question again, something we've already talked about in this episode. What do you need to do your best work? Are we asking people that? What sort of environment? I remember this is something that Luke Donald did with his Ryder Cup team what are the things that help you play at your best? Yeah, we're coming into a team environment. Having been individual golfers for the rest of the year, what in this environment, can I do to support you now to be part of this team and to bring your best into this team, and to acknowledge that. So I think it's creating the space for those conversations and I very much like this point you made. You know what would make it worthwhile, what makes it really valuable. So you will go home thinking, yeah, not, I went in and I ticked off my two days in this week, but this is what I gained from going in.

Cath: 25:25

If we're not clear on that, then we're not actually maximizing the performance environment. We're not giving people the conditions to do their best work. Ie, we're getting in their way. That doesn't make sense. So I think, shifting the question what is it that we all need to do our best work? And starting and to develop it from that point is then going to open up the opportunities, the options, and then we've got to also do a little bit of experimenting. I think we seem to want a fixed option. We've got to say it's got to be this thing for everyone. That makes no sense if we're all doing different types of jobs. So just challenging this and gently creating a sense that we do what we need to do for our job, it's going to help us do our best work. That's actually what we want to get from this, rather than a rule for a rule's sake that we can then uphold and enforce and monitor and punish and all of that. That's just not the way to go if we actually want to help people do their best work.

Colin: 26:23

Yeah, and it comes back and we mentioned this before in manager skills. There was one survey that only 3% of managers said they had the skills to manage a hybrid workforce. So it's part of that evolution of management as well. We've got to help people. We talked about experimenting. Yeah, we've got to help managers to do those kinds of things. We've got to help them to manage different people in different environments. And how do we ensure that we keep the team together without creating, you know, kind of creating these conditions where we fracture the workforce? Okay, last question to you, Cath, and also topical at the minute, is how can we manage, or better manage, uncertainty?

Cath: 27:01

It's a huge one, it's quite a philosophical one actually. I hear so differing views and I think there are, from evolutionary psychology, different views on what we need, what level of certainty we need. Some people say, oh, we're all desperate for certainty and therefore we're struggling in these times. But I was privileged to be at the launch and have since read Margaret Heffernan's latest book, embracing Uncertainty how writers and artists basically can show us the way their whole work is premised on starting something they don't know what it's going to look like, and really leaning into exploring the uncertainty, using the uncertainty to explore what's possible. So for me there's a huge mindset piece here.

Cath: 27:46

We actually get very dependent. Unfortunately, our education system will often lead us to feel their certainty. In our subjects, in our exams, there are right answers and we're right or wrong, and that is really leading us up the wrong path for what we need. We need to help ourselves actually explore different options, be able to think about possibilities. Most of the challenges we face in the workplace now are ones that don't have a right answer. We have to continually develop better answers, and so for me it is giving space to this, making sure that in our development, in our leadership development in our team development in our conversations as teams. We're thinking about actually how are we developing, what are we exploring, what's possible? We're opening up into this space rather than trying to monitor, measure all these simple things that give us actually a false sense of certainty. So read Margaret Hefner's book. It's my top tip.

Colin: 28:46

And I think it's true what you say. I think we have to recognize that uncertainty exists. I've seen so many things fail because we try and get every single detail right. What was it Mike Tyson said Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. But it's true.

Cath: 29:01

Every battle, I mean the military say, don't they? Every battle plan doesn't survive first contact with the enemy or something.

Colin: 29:08

Yeah, that's right, and so I think reframing it is really key. You know, I like scenario planning, pre-mortems. I love this, I love running pre-mortems. You know what could kill this or what could improve this, and so I think that sense of curiosity is actually to create that time for people to be curious, find out new stuff Don't bog them down with pointless meetings, poor communication and trying to get absolute certainty about everything is making sure that they've got the time that, when things don't go as planned, they can actually look into what can we do differently. You know what? What if this thing that we're planning isn't true? You know what? What will that lead to? And I think that uncertainty can lead to greater creativity and really prevent that kind of idea blindness that we get because we've tried to, you know, put everything on its line and define it to a degree where people just don't have the capacity for new ideas, new concepts and new ways of thinking. Yeah, so I can't wait to read Margaret's book myself.

Cath: 30:15

Yeah, I really recommend it. It's a good one and it is for me. I find a lot of the work I'm doing I'm trying to help people open up thinking patterns that are closing down because we're chasing targets, we're chasing short-term metrics and we're not really thinking about what's possible. That could get us into trouble. Because actually, if the world, the environment we're in, is shifting, if there are different opportunities coming, we're just not really noticing those. And even for ourselves, again, we've just got the sense of I'm doing stuff, I'm active, I'm busy, but actually am I doing something meaningful? Could I actually be doing something slightly different that would have much greater value for the longer term or be much more meaningful to the people that we serve in the organization, outside the organization? So asking some different questions on certainty can really help us to think differently and that's where we could lean into it and actually welcome it a bit more.

Colin: 31:05

Fantastic. Just a reminder to everybody out there if you've got a question that you'd like Cath and I to cover, please do drop us a line insideoutculture at gmailcom, or come and see us when we speak or a workshop, ask us a question. We may project it back onto the podcast. But that was. I really love that question and answer episode, Cath. Thank you so much yeah great.

Cath: 31:26

See you soon. Thanks for listening to today's Inside Out.

Colin: 31:31

Culture Podcast. Please remember to like, subscribe and, of course, share with others who you think may be interested.