Inside Out Culture

What you can learn from the culture at Boost Drinks with Eleanor Gooding

• Inside Out Culture • Season 1 • Episode 34

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In this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we talk to former People and Culture Director of Boost Drinks, Eleanor Gooding about the role and other culture-related issues:

Key topics covered include:

  • What practical things did she do at Boost to create a vibrant culture?
  • Ideas to positively evolve the culture
  • Why deliberately designing and building culture is key
  • What’s her take on the new book about Facebook?

Find out more about Eleanor at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleanor-gooding/ 

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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

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Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com

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Colin:

Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look at insides of working culture and provide ideas, insights and actions for you to take on the outside. I'm Colin Ellis.

Cath:

And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a different question or a different organization, and we'll use case studies, research and our own insights and experiences to help you change the way things get done in your world.

Colin:

We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please like, subscribe and, of course, let us know what you think. Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Inside Out Culture Podcast, and I'm delighted to say that we have a guest joining us today, Cath.

Cath:

I am really excited that we are joined by Eleanor Gooding, who is a self-confessed workplace culture geek, so she's absolutely welcome, isn't she, colin, in our kind of total workplace culture geekery. Her roles in her workplace, her career, has been about helping companies go from good to great, and she's passionate about modern people practices where everyone can thrive.

Eleanor:

Welcome, eleanor, hi, and thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm really excited to be here.

Cath:

Thank you. So one of the things that when we were discussing and I heard you talk at a conference last year and it really grabbed me all of the experiences you had in your recent role for about six years, I think as the head of people and culture at Boost Drinks. So what we're going to do is dive into that. So this episode is a real sort of getting perspective from the front line of someone who thinks very proactively about culture, and you yourself have said you know you just don't get. You know companies often don't get. The culture is more than just cleaning up problems, toxic behaviours. It's way beyond that and part of this podcast is about helping people think proactively and your whole role was about that world. So tell us a bit about how you got into that role, what your sort of real task was and how things unfolded.

Eleanor:

Okay, brilliant. So, yeah, I think my background is quite diverse and I think it's important to say at this point that I got brought up by a couple of management consultants. So really early in my life it was kind of like oh fine, right, you want to go and be a hippie and travel across Europe, that's fine. How are you going to afford the van? How are you going to get around? How are you going to keep yourself safe? Let's build a strategy. You know everything.

Eleanor:

In our household there was always this kind of what's the problem? How do we solve it? How do we get there? How can we empower you? That kind of thing. And so sometimes I get asked at interviews or when I meet people why there are certain things that I could do.

Eleanor:

I was brought up to think that way, so I think that's an interesting thing, and I've had quite an interesting career and I spent years and years trying to be an artist and I worked in retail all that time and I got up into management in retail with a number of different companies of different sizes and I learned how to people manage and I learned what works and what didn't work, and I've been on the front line.

Eleanor:

I know what it's like to have a fantastic manager and I know what it's like to have an awful manager. And then, before I joined Boost, I had done some freelance work as a strategic consultant, usually on the people stuff myself. But I also worked for an HR certification company for some time, which I was part of building the certification itself, and it meant I got to go and see the best practices the HR departments were doing in not big, big sophisticated companies across the UK, and there were a lot of them international and so it. So it's with that kind of experience all combined that I came ended up applying to a job at Boost.

Colin:

I've got a quick question, eleanor, just jumping back to what you said about kind of your progression started on the shop floor, like literally, and we've talked about this in the past. That was certainly my background kind of working my way all the way up, looking at what worked, looking at what didn't. Do you think, before we talk about kind of boost, do you think we're deliberate enough now around how we train managers and I'm interested in your experience, obviously, having been in the role where you're responsible for learning and development Do you think those opportunities for new managers to learn, like we did, still exist? How has all that changed? Do you think?

Eleanor:

I think companies would probably say that there's more support, more training in place for those. But it's so different in company to company and I have worked probably more with SMEs than with big corporations in my own working experience and they often don't have much at all in the way. It's a person who does well in their job that gets promoted and then they're suddenly a people manager, and so you talk about this on your podcast. You can see how somebody who's brilliant at the job doesn't necessarily make a brilliant manager, and I do think I'm probably jumping ahead to something that I might have at the end. But whenever I've worked with any company, whether it's as an employee, in a senior role or as a consultant, if they say, if you can only invest in one thing, what would it be? And I would say train your people managers, because they will determine the daily experience of the people in your company.

Cath:

Yeah, so tell us a bit more about the mission, the cultural mission that you came in to lead at Boost.

Eleanor:

Yeah, okay, so Boost was privately owned and the CEO was the founder, simon Gray, and he hired me as one of the leadership team members and there were about six people in that team at the time and a non-exec director as well, kirsty, who has featured quite largely in the work we did as well. And you know, boost had been around for I don't know 15 years maybe at the time, and the culture there when I joined it was on the surface. It looked like a vibrant place to work, an exciting place to work. You start to pick at things and scratch below the surface. It looked like a vibrant place to work, an exciting place to work. You start to pick at things and scratch below the surface a little bit. And was the company in charge of the culture? Not really. Were all the behaviours in line with what Simon had in his head? Not really. And did they have the tools to kind of go through that process themselves? No, that's why I was hired and I was the first people role. There were, you know, HR things being done. So obviously, you know there was all the legal requirements and that kind of thing. There were some values in place already and there'd been some good work done in that kind of area.

Eleanor:

But Simon was brought into the whole idea of culture. He's somebody who educates himself and he belongs to lots of groups and you know, and he was really liking what he was hearing about the people agenda and what you know. He wanted to take that further in boost and didn't know how. And essentially that's why I came into the business and and very early on I had to ask him well, what you know, what, what is it that you want here? So that led really straight to the work that I started to do, which was to say what are we trying to do here and why? And I'm a really big believer that you need to understand the nature of your business. So the first thing I did was to try and get used to the business myself, but also to talk to Simon a lot about what he wanted, what he didn't want, what was okay, what was fantastic. But I kept saying well, the kind of HR that we do in the company needs to reflect this kind of feeling and tone in the business that you want. And he didn't really understand that. He'd be the first person to say I understand the words he's saying, but I don't know what that looks like.

Eleanor:

So I developed something that I called the sliding scale of HR and I kind of made this table where on one side we had quite traditional people practices, in the middle there was modern people practices and on the other side there was progressive people practices, and then I would divide it up and I would say, first of all, what kinds of companies would they suit Each kind of practice suit? And then, okay, let's use some examples. So a really easy one is holidays. So a traditional company would probably offer what the law was. Maybe you would accrue some more over time. A modern company would probably give above what was legally required and they might have a buying or selling program in place.

Eleanor:

And a progressive company is going to be someone like Netflix, who you know unlimited holiday, but how do you manage that? So you know program in place. And a progressive company is going to be someone like Netflix, who you know unlimited holiday, but how do you manage that? So you know, they all have their pros and cons and I think one of the things is is I don't. I genuinely believe there is not a right and a wrong as long as you're above the law.

Eleanor:

You really need to take that time to understand the nature of your business, and between us and the leadership team and non-exec Kirsty as well, we decided that we wanted to be aiming between modern and progressive. Something I think is important is Boost was a challenger brand, so we were a fast follower, and so that was something I always had in mind Am I trying to innovate here, or am I trying to follow, or what am I trying to do? So I always had that in my head I trying to innovate here, or am I trying to follow, or you know, what am I trying to do? So I always had that in my head as well, and we weren't the. You know, we didn't want to be the first people to try out something crazy, although maybe we did. What sort of stuff?

Cath:

then were you? Did you have to change? You said there were values, but I get the sense they weren't really embedded in behaviours. What were some of the really critical things, what things perhaps were most impactful in changing the culture? Because I think often people have lots of initiatives and then some land and some don't and your perspective now, looking back on that period, I think it'd be so interesting to get a sense of which were the really critical changes you made and perhaps which are the ones that you thought would be more important and maybe weren't so important.

Eleanor:

Yeah, I think it's an interesting question that you're asking and I hope I'll answer this. But one of the things I actually I mean Simon really wanted to run ahead with change. He had seen things that were exciting and he wanted the company to win awards and all this kind of stuff and I had to say, slow down, there is no point in us doing anything until we have the behaviors at the top of the company all aligned with this direction we wanted to go in. So, as the second part of the work I did, along with the sliding scatterbite chart, we did an aspirational cultural definition and that was absolutely critical and key in everything that followed. So you ask about things like the values. The values were good and people were trying to talk about them and they did remain the values until the end of the company, which we'll touch on at some point.

Eleanor:

But we again, even with the values, I said it's not that much pointless doing a lot of work on some of these things because we'll roll them out, they'll be beautiful, they'll be shiny, but if we haven't got the right behaviors, those behaviors will undermine everything else we try and do.

Eleanor:

So this has to be a case of us walking before we can run and I think that was the first critical moment was us kind of putting a stake in the ground and saying, okay, we want to be modern, progressive and this is what we want to aim for.

Eleanor:

And then, as part of aiming for that culture that we described in this lovely statement, we took it out to the business and we engaged them with it. How are we doing on this? What part do you play in this? You know who owns this. And that was really key, because I think that was the very, very beginning of the process and by the end of that process, every single person in Boost understood how they contributed towards the business and towards the culture and they all looked after it and they all tried to help it and to get to that kind of point, I Can I ask a question, eleanor, in terms of the leadership team, because every time I start working with a leadership team, there's usually one like the CEO often is like yes, and Simon sounds like he was the guy.

Colin:

Hr, 100% culture is the thing. There's always one cynic and one skeptic. Maybe that didn't exist in Boost. Maybe everyone was aligned from day one. How did you get that alignment around? We're going to make an investment of time and money in culture and we all believe it's the right thing. Were you the catalyst for that? Was Simon the catalyst for that?

Eleanor:

I think Simon wanted us to be the best leadership team that we could be and I think I was probably tasked to helping us move to that point. And I worked a lot with our non-exec director, kirsty, in that as well, because I was one of the team as well. So if there was something I wanted to do as a team and we did a lot of work together as a team in lots of different ways, using established tools and just group work but what I often get Kirsty to facilitate, that because she knew the business inside out, she knew the characters inside out. I think you are absolutely right and I always want to be extremely careful what I say, because it is my genuine belief that there's not a right and a wrong, but there are good alignments with people and their roles and there are people who would be best off in a different role in a different company, and that's fine.

Eleanor:

But I think companies sometimes get scared to face that. And let's just say that we did a lot of work and we had one, two within the first three years, three of the leadership team were gone and then we had a new. We had yeah, we just got new people in who we hoped and believed were much more aligned with that kind of culture we wanted to create, because we knew that we had to set the tone for that culture at the top. And one more thing on leadership there was we collectively had a saying that came from our marketing director, adrian, which was as leaders, we cast a shadow. We have to make sure that shadow is a good one, and we really tried to live by that as time went on.

Cath:

Yeah, I love that, I love that phrase. So you came with all these HR practices in your head. What else wasn't in your head that you kind of realised, oh, I need to do more of this or hang on. For culture to go deep, something else is needed.

Eleanor:

Yeah, do you know? That led to the biggest kind of moment of my time with Boost, which I really I mean, this is a piece of work I was so proud of and now that I have lived with this, I'll tell you what it is in a second. I don't know how I lived without it. I think you know, as a people consultant, as a person in an HR director role in the past, and then this people and culture role, there are assumptions that you make about what the company is willing or not willing to do for their people. There are assumptions that you make about what is right and wrong.

Eleanor:

You know that you do these things, and what I realized was that there was something in the background missing for me, and we all had these assumptions and we were mostly when we talked about them as a leadership team. We were on the same page, but they weren't written down anywhere. So that led me to lead the process of developing what we called the People Manifesto. They really liked the name, probably wouldn't call it that again, but that's what we called it at the time. It was kind of a working title that never went away, but it was a brilliant thing to have and it defined the parameters of our approach to people. So it was in three sections. It had our beliefs, then it had what we pledged to do for our people and then what we expected from them in return.

Eleanor:

And just to give you a little bit of an example, I think sorry, I'm rustling paper around here so the kind of beliefs were things like we believe that the spirit in Boost was unique and special and we all had a responsibility to look after it. That was one of our beliefs. Your experience working at the company should be positive and rewarding. There's an equal give and take between you and the company. Our values live, breathe and evolve over time according to the needs of our business, and we expect you to be part of that. And our last belief was that being a high quality progressive employer is a worthy effort. So you know, putting those on paper, agreeing them and then knowing and second you, put them out there, people will hold you accountable for that was a big thing. So then we had the two other sections, which were what we'd strive to do. So, you know, provide high quality, high quality, motivating EVPs, treat you first and foremost as a human. It was things like that. So how are we going to treat people? And then we expect from it in return you to help the company to grow and win and be the best it can be, you to immerse yourself with our vision and values, you to be accountable for your actions and behaviors. It was things like that. I don't think I will ever work in or with a company that isn't willing to put something like that in place.

Eleanor:

Now, because I've seen the benefits and I think we were doing really well by the time that we did this piece of work. But then we did brilliantly and that was the real turning point for me. So, if you think about it. We had the people manifesto, a bit like a constitution in the background, and it helps with everything. You have a people decision to make. You know you go back to that and you ask what makes sense in line with this, and it also can help you explain why you might make one decision for one person and, in the same situation, a different decision for a different person. It sits there and you have to be able to go back to it. And anyway, it was a joy. I loved that thing. And then we've got the definition, which is where we're heading to. So that was the vision.

Colin:

I think there's a key lesson there for people listening around who are sitting on the fence about do I make an investment in culture? And something that Cath and I have talked about before sometimes. I was talking to a client, a potential client last week once you make an investment in culture and you see the return it brings, you'll never, ever go back. You'll never go back, and it's something that you just reiterated there, eleanor, is you made that commitment? I guess for me it'd be great to hear what you did at Boost to then evolve the culture. So cultures don't change overnight. They take time, it's medium, long-term. What kinds of things did you do over the medium and long-term to make sure that you got that evolution of culture, so you maintain that sense of vibrancy?

Eleanor:

Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question, okay. So we involved everybody. We constantly consistently involved people in both the cultural definition and what it meant. Consistently involve people in both the cultural definition and what it meant, their actions and the people manifesto. So the culture became a word that we used daily in our jobs. We did things like we wrote how people have contributed towards the culture into our self-evaluation and performance reviews. We've made a video that showed off a culture that we could use with hiring and just making ourselves feel good. But it did, you know, and yeah, so we did lots of work. But on positives, we made sure that the EVP and everything we put in place was aligned with that culture. And I'll tell you what I mean by this is if you're putting something, you you know that somebody might describe.

Eleanor:

I know you guys love the word fluffy oh my goodness, we must overuse that right notes trigger if you're going to put some fluffy stuff in place, that's fine, but make sure the fluffy stuff comes back to the strategy that's come out of what you're trying to achieve here, because if it doesn't, why are you doing it? So why are you having office skateboards? Okay, if you can explain why office skateboards will help to build that culture you want, absolutely fine. We did things. We put some of those nice, nicer things in place. A really good example and I always use this one.

Eleanor:

So sorry, Cath, you've probably heard this one when you saw me speak we had a Be the Best you allowance, and it was an allowance of up to £500 that anybody in the company could use on enhancing or further building a skill or gaining a new skill or on their health. So it was about improving their lives, but it had to have nothing to do with work. We had an L&D budget in place. If we wanted to do a training course at work, we'd pay for them to do a training course. So we had people who took horse riding, golfing, sailing, indian food, cooking lessons.

Eleanor:

Somebody did a DJing course, somebody did a stand-up comedy course, and people started to use them towards their diagnosis assessments for things like adhd as well. So. So that was one of the things for one of the small fancy things we did, and if you think about the payback from that, people loved that so much and they used to go off and tell their friends and their friends would want to come and work at boost. But it, you know what, we could have been a toxic culture and had that in place and it could still have been popular, but the fact that we had an amazing culture in place meant that it was, you know, icing on the cake for people.

Cath:

Were there things that people resisted? Did you have resistance somewhere? There must always be resistance. Were there things that you thought, oh, come on, come on board this. I get that people like the be the best, you allowance. Were there other things that, oh, the behaviour wasn't moving in the way that you wanted?

Eleanor:

Yeah, I mean, there were people who left because they didn't want to or couldn't be on board with it, and there were people that we asked to leave as well. And again, I think you know, I kind of am racking my brains a bit there were always things that you'd start to go okay, this is what we want to do. There'd be, there'd always be, people who would roll their eyes or say, yeah, let's see. And, and you know, while people are people, they come with a set of baggage. You know there was, there were people in our company who had really had negative, awful employment experiences before in multiple ways.

Eleanor:

And I think the more emotionally intelligent and fluent your company becomes, the more that people can relax. And we just called it unmasking, and that wasn't just about neurodivergence. But the more that people could unmask and be themselves, then the more important I think it was for you to get things right and to take your time and allow people to actually work through some of the stuff that they needed to work through. So you know that I worked with a manager who was managing somebody who definitely had baggage from a previous experience and it was kind of like well, this is how we need to manage her because she's unpacking that. Give her the time, she'll be an absolutely brilliant employee. So, Cath, back to your question. I've got one other thing I wanted to tell you, about which one of the big pieces of work that we did, which was a real game changer for us, was when we decided we wanted to do some EDI work.

Colin:

EDI. Sorry for people who are listening.

Eleanor:

Equality, diversity and inclusion work and they need to also say we, we called it all be the best you. Um, we tried to stay away from hr talk. We tried to stay away from technical language as much as possible. Again, part of that whole who are we and the nature of our business. We need to be using language that reflects the business. We need need to dress and look how it reflects the business. We need leaders to set the tone for what we want for the business. So we called this whole program to be the best you.

Eleanor:

And we started by doing some work with a really well just. She was an absolute brilliant EDI professional who worked just with the leadership team to help us to actually get on board before we went any further and we had such good discussions. But, you know, even in a great strong leadership team, which we were by that point, there were still people who said, yeah, but can't we just hire the best people, can't we? I think living and breathing EDI is different from understanding it. So, anyway, we, I think, matured as a leadership team around that point and it was really great. And then we started to do work with the same woman and we had mandatory sessions for everybody in the whole business. And this was, I think, during the tail end of COVID, so these were mostly online COVID, so these were mostly online.

Eleanor:

We got to a point where I genuinely believed that everybody could be themselves. We had somebody who was visually impaired, who had never even realized until that session that she actually had a disability. She'd never kind of embraced it, she had always kind of it had been this negative thing following her around that she kind of was almost in denial of. And after that, the second session that we had, she wrote this open letter to the whole company and just went. You know, that just blew my mind and I've realized that I have a disability. Listen everybody, this is what my life is like, this is what it's like, and she shared this and it was so moving. Everybody cried when they read it and it was a real empowered moment for her and I was just really proud of it.

Cath:

Gosh, that's amazing. You've got so many inspirational stories and we've just been able to dip into a few of them, but it really shows you the possibilities opened up by a proactive, ambitious, aspirational approach to culture can be so extraordinary. Now we've been so positive for nearly half an hour we're just going to flip for a minute because we were all reading this new book that's come out by Sarah Wynne Williams Careless People, and, my goodness, you're inspiring us, and this book actually ought to also inspire us to invest in culture, because you know the power. Greed madness is the subtitle and it, you know, the relentless pursuit of growth at any cost is what you see. Just give us a crazy about how it's blowing your mind at the moment, eleanor.

Eleanor:

Yeah, do you know what? It blew my mind in multiple ways. I mean, just talk about bad business practices. I mean bad businesses, business practices, an unhealthy culture. That was the dangerous kind, because from the outside it looked like quite a fun culture and I've got a lot to say on that. If you ever want to invite me back on that topic, on that, if you ever want to invite me back on that topic, then I'm already in. But the other thing is, you know, as a human being, it blew my mind just to say you don't treat people like that. There were so many things. But then also HR and I've got a lot to say on this topic as well.

Eleanor:

But HR I mean for for a function within businesses that are meant to be all about the people. Sometimes HR people don't even seem to like people and sometimes they close ranks and it undermines the good work being done by all the other HR practitioners. You know I mean it undermines that and it's sad. It's such a wasted opportunity and you know I can be talking to people and then they say what do you do? And if I choose to say I work in HR, there's often a wouldn't have put you in HR kind of thing, and I do specifically go out of my way to say actually I am people and culture, which I see as a different thing, but a lot of HR practitioners, some of whom don't seem to even like people very much, seem to be just changing their titles to people and culture and then they don't know how to strategically design and manage a culture, and also I think it leads to sorry I'm babbling now, but I do have a point here there is a point of who should be owning your culture.

Eleanor:

I've been putting some content together and I've done a bit of research and I think people and culture director is the fastest growing title within the kind of hr world, but there's very, very few companies that have a chief people and culture officer. They there are chief people officers, but the amount of the amount of companies that have a role that is something like this recruitment and culture manager and you just want to go is that the importance of culture in you culture? You don't understand the vast possibilities of managing a culture as part of your business strategy, which is where I believe it should be managed.

Colin:

I want to do a whole show now called Does HR Hate People? Oh my God, just imagine if you could get someone for yes, we do, we hate them.

Cath:

We're only for the organization well, maybe it's a natural consequence if you're in a poor organization, that that, that the sphere, and you've got processes and it's like you're in a machine the hr machine rather than human. Maybe it's a sort of where you end up yeah, I just just on that cat.

Colin:

Sorry it is so. When I was reading the book it prompted the age-old question does hr serve the employees or the organization At Facebook? According to Sarah Wynn-Williams' book, it very much served Mark Zuckerberg and then the organization and almost never the people. It's quite stark, yeah.

Eleanor:

But if you were to ask me that question, I would say HR serves the strategy and HR people and culture. Whatever role you're in there, you really should be aligned with what are we trying to deliver as a company? And you have to be fair. And if you only protect the company, then you're missing opportunities and that's how you will be perceived and experienced. If you are only protecting the people, then you're going to end up in a fight with your company.

Eleanor:

That's right yeah, you have to walk the line, you have to be both but ultimately serve the strategy. So did that answer your question? I was appalled by the book. The story is that it's a great read. It's a great read, I couldn't put it down. But it's appalling. Some of the stuff that went on there uh, that's.

Colin:

I mean, this has been been an absolutely brilliant half an hour, Eleanor. Now we normally round off the shows with kind of six things. Sorry, three things. You said you've got six. So if you can give us a sense of what three six might be, that would be great. We'll put them in the information sheet. If you're not yet subscribed to the information sheet, drop us a note and we can add you. So what are those things, Eleanor, that people need to be thinking about?

Eleanor:

Yeah, okay, so sorry, and the reason I've done six is really because I did three, but the thing is they were all really quite high level and these are really aimed at business leaders at the top your CEO, your founder, your owners, somewhere in a role that's got responsibility for the overall business. You need to understand the nature of your business. You need to go through that process, understand it and be honest about it, and what I mean by that is what I just said about Facebook being dangerous because they appear to have quite a cool culture. I think you need to be honest. You don't have to have the most vibrant, fluffiest, progressive modern culture. You don't have to have that, but just face up what kind of culture would suit your business and then do your best to get there. So I would understand the nature of your business. I would absolutely get your senior people on board, and that might mean getting them off board. The business will reflect the nature of the people at the top, and I think that's kind of inevitable. So if you want a really vibrant modern culture, you need leaders who like people and get people, and then I would define the culture that will deliver on your business strategy and I would then make a strategy to deliver that. So those things are all very high level.

Eleanor:

So the reason I did another three was just, you know, there will be people who listen to this who might go well, that's all well and good, but I really don't. I can't influence those things at all. I'm working at a level where I can't. So what I'd say is the three, maybe more easily tangible for most people. Practitioners would be really engage your people.

Eleanor:

Find good ways to engage your people with your cultural vision or what what you think the cultural vision is. If your leaders won't put a cultural vision in place, you need to align people with that in whatever way you can, and we did it through all sorts of methods, and I again, I could use a whole podcast just to do that. But even if you add a question to your people's performance reviews and you write into people's job descriptions like that is a start, it will help. And just use it in the language of your company all the time and clean up. The third thing is clean up, just clean up the behaviors, start at the top and just keep working on them, because they will make a enormous difference, and I think the way that you have to kind of do, that is through training your people managers.

Colin:

Eleanor, it has been just a fabulous 35 minutes. It really really has Brimming with energy and excitement. After the conversation, and speaking for Cath and I, I just want to say a huge thank you for coming on and sharing your thoughts, ideas and experience here on the Inside Out Culture Podcast.

Eleanor:

Thanks for having me. I hope I wasn't too all over the place.

Cath:

Thanks for listening to today's Inside Out.

Colin:

Culture Podcast. Please remember to like, subscribe and, of course, share with others who you think may be interested.

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Cath Bishop

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Colin D Ellis

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